In this podcast episode, BFM 89.9 Market Watch speaks with Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, to discuss the current state of the economy and the stock market. Nash predicts that GDP growth will be around 1% this year, which is a downgrade from previous estimates. He suggests that, due to inflation, firms have been passing on their costs to customers, but with lower volumes expected, there will be a focus on efficiency in the latter half of 2024 and into 2025. Nash also notes that there is a lot of excitement in the tech industry surrounding generative AI, which could bring about efficiencies and revenue opportunities for companies. This has resulted in a rally in tech stocks, despite the lower GDP growth estimates. However, Nash acknowledges that it’s difficult to predict how long this rally will last and whether companies’ valuations will come back down to earth eventually.
Regarding the bond market, Nash suggests that it has historically been more accurate in predicting interest rates compared to central bank prognostications. Currently, bonds are indicating that a recession is coming, but Nash believes there is only a slowdown expected, not a full-blown recession. Furthermore, he suggests that the Fed may be late to respond to this slowdown, as central banks are typically reactive organizations. Nash also discusses the recent performance of safe-haven assets such as the yen, gold, and the US dollar, and suggests that this is due to concerns over the Omicron variant and rising inflation.
Overall, Nash predicts that there will be a focus on efficiency and cautious optimism in the stock market in the coming years. He also suggests that it’s important to remain cautious and vigilant in the current economic climate, as there are a number of uncertainties and potential risks.
Transcript:
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The business station.
BFM
BFM 89.9. 7:06 A.m. On Thursday the 30 March. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning. In half an hour, we’re going to discuss whether the worst is over for the Sri Lankan economy after it secured a 3 billion U. S. Dollar bailout last week from the IMF th. But as always, we’re going to kick start the morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.
BFM
It was almost perfect. Almost perfect because almost every market was upset one. So let’s name the guilty one. It was the Shanghai Composite Index, which was down 0.2%, but otherwise us all in the green. The Dow was up 1%, S&P 500 up 1.4%, Nasdaq up 1.8%. In fact, if you look at the Nasdaq, this is the shocking thing, right? I thought tech was dead. Growth is over. Well, it ain’t the case because the Nasdaq is up 14% on a year to date basis, this has been the stellar outperformer. Now, if we look at Asian Nikkei was up 1.3%, Hang Seng up 2.1%. Shanghai, like I said, was the one that was down 0.2%. Singapore Straits Times Index, up 0.2%. And our very own FBMKLCI currently up 0.8% to 1420 points.
BFM
All right, so for some thoughts on what’s moving markets we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Thanks, as always, for joining us. Now, given recent performance in US. Equities, investors seem to be looking beyond the challenges in the financial sector and recognizing that US economic growth continues to be resilient. Could investors be headed for a rude shock, though?
Tony
Well, it’s a really interesting question. I think those investors who expect rapid GDP growth, I think will be disappointed. We expect GDP growth to be kind of around 1% this year. That’s downgraded from a couple of months ago. And so it’s not necessarily overall economic growth that will happen. There will be secural growth. And what we’ll see through the rest of, say, this year and into 2025 is a focus on efficiency. What’s been happening is, because of inflation, firms have been passing on their margins or been passing on their costs and more than their costs to their customers. Okay. And so with a lower volume. So we’re going to see a focus on efficiency in the back half of 2024 and into 2025. So you will see equity performance in pockets. But in general, we’ll likely see things sideways unless we see the Fed change footing dramatically, which is still not really expected.
BFM
Okay, so, Tony, is that pocket the Nasdaq? Because help me understand this. Right? Since December, it’s actually up 20%. And I thought growth is great. What’s going on?
Tony
Well, in tech right now, there’s a lot of excitement over generative AI. This is ChatGPT and the other kind of applications of generative artificial intelligence. And so investors are looking at companies everything from semiconductors to say, Meta and saying gosh generative AI, which is kind of the next milestone for AI, could really change these companies and could really bring about efficiencies and could really bring about these revenue opportunities. So there’s a lot happening in tech, of course, but in general, when you look at companies like Microsoft that has made the major investment in OpenAI and you look at Google and their new AI kind of chat item that’s out there and then other companies. It’s similar to I know you guys are too young to know this, but in 2000, whenever a company would release a website, their stock would get a bump. And so what we’re seeing right now is whenever companies release an offering or say they are implementing some sort of generative artificial intelligence or ChatGPT or something like that, they’re getting a bump in their equity price.
BFM
Okay, but how long can this rally kind of last? There seems to be a disconnect because you just told us GDP is 1% and then companies earnings probably aren’t going to be that great for the moment. Yet markets seem to ignore the news. Will they all come back down to earth eventually?
Tony
Well, it depends on how you define down to earth. Right? Is down to earth 2018 valuations and 2018 market levels maybe. Again, it really depends on how the market views, I think generally, how the market views activities by central banks and the Fed. So if the Fed has really isolated the banking crisis, which I believe they have, then the Fed can continue to raise rates and then they can continue to shrink their balance sheet. Now they just grew their balance sheet by a lot by bailing out banks. But they can shrink their balance sheet in certain areas, say mortgages, those sorts of things. So that can help to bring some of these valuations down to earth. But keep in mind, we’re going into a presidential election year in 2024. And so it’s really hard to determine, does the US administration not want a recession or do they want a terrible recession so they can be seen to be passing a fiscal stimulus plan. So I don’t know what their calculus is. They can either keep the economy steaming ahead or they can try to drive the economy into the recession so they can be seen to be passing massive stimulus packages.
BFM
Tony, in one of your panel commentaries, a suggestion was made that bond markets were more accurate in predicting rates compared to central bank prognostications. Why is that so? And what are they currently saying about future Fed hikes?
Tony
Well, the first thing kind of every amateur loves to be a central bank prognosticator, so those are rarely right. But bonds. So if you look at a year ago, bonds were telling the Fed that they needed to raise rates because inflation was coming and they waited until too late. Right now, bonds are saying that a recession is coming and the Fed is continuing to tighten and the Fed is always late. Central banks are typically always late because they are a reactive organization and that’s how they’re designed to be. Are bonds going to be absolutely right about a recession coming later in the year? I’m not really sure. Again, we think there’s a slowdown, but we don’t necessarily think there’s a recession. And when we use the R word, we also have to be careful because it can be defined any way we want. Right. Because we had two consecutive quarters of negative growth last year and nobody says that we had a recession last year. So a recession kind of is whatever we define it as today.
BFM
Okay, well in the last two, three weeks there’s been clear, three clear safe haven assets: yen, gold, and US dollar. Do you think these three asset classes still can be safe haven assets?
Tony
It’s really hard for the dollar and gold to be safe haven assets at the same time. For the yen, I think with the change of the governor, the chairman of the BOJ, and Japan of course is already doing this, but I think they have to be very careful. That happens in, I think late next month. And so if they can handle that transition in an easy, seamless way, I think we can probably continue to do that. Gold? I’m not entirely sure. I know there are a lot of people out there pumping gold right now, and there are a lot of people kind of naysaying the dollar right now. Trying to say that Saudi signed some agreement. Saudi Arabia signed some agreement to deal in US dollars, and Russia signed Chinese Yuan and Russia signed an agreement to deal in Chinese Yuan or whatever. But those are very small, nominally very small. So I do think the dollar will remain a safe haven in times of turbulence. Japanese yen probably because currencies are all on a relative basis. They’re all on a relative basis. Gold, I don’t think gold is going to fluctuate a lot, but I think gold investors can be very fickle. So I’d be really careful of that one.
BFM
Tony, thanks as always for the chat. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. Commenting there a little bit about the difference in market exuberance in tech sector compared with, I suppose the sentiment that perhaps the US could be heading towards a recession or at least markedly slower growth than what was anticipated early on.
BFM
But I think it’s interesting that Tony brought up the reason why, which is, it’s generative AI, well ChatGPT, right. So much excitement about it and I think questions about is it a disruption or is it an opportunity? But I think markets thinking, hey, which companies are going to get involved in this.
BFM
If you see a company that’s involved in AI, if they have their own AI bot or whatever, oh, that must.
BFM
Be a good thing.
BFM
It reminds me so much of the hype over the Metaverse not that long ago when Facebook or Meta decided to take that angle. And right now, there’s no no one’s talking about the Metaverse metabolism.
BFM
What are you talking about, Charles? Everybody’s forgotten about it. Right. So there are always trends that come and go. Let’s see who really can monetize it. That’s the thing at the end of the day.
The European Union will allow members to offer subsidies that match those offered by the US Inflation Reduction Act to prevent an exodus of green energy projects. The White House’s $369 billion initiative has been criticised by many countries, which fear it could attract local companies to move across the Atlantic.
Roger Hearing discusses this and more business news with two guests on opposite sides of the world: Stefanie Yuen Thio, joint managing partner at TSMP Law in Singapore, and Tony Nash, chief economist at Complete Intelligence in Texas.
Tony Nash, CEO and founder of Complete Intelligence, joined BBC Business Matters podcast, to discuss a range of topics from autonomous vehicles to green energy subsidies.
Nash shared his thoughts on the future of AI and autonomous vehicles. He discussed the challenges of ensuring self-driving cars can navigate changing road conditions and the safety concerns that come with autonomous driving. Nash also discussed the potential of AI in the transportation industry and the need for continued development in this area.
Nash also provided insights on Joe Biden’s tax plan, specifically focusing on corporate taxes and unrealized gains tax. He discussed the potential impact of the tax plan on companies and individuals and offered alternative solutions to the proposed policies.
Nash also discussed the transatlantic race for green energy subsidies in another episode. He explored the role of government grants in spurring innovation in the green energy industry and discussed the challenges facing countries caught in the middle of geopolitical forces. Nash also highlighted the importance of consumer pressure in driving environmentally friendly products.
Transcript
BBC
Hello, and welcome to Business Matters. I’m Roger Hearing. Coming up on the program today, the European Commission is allowing member states to subsidize companies with green energy projects. They’re trying to forestall a drift of such firms to the US. Where state aid is already in place. Also, as pro Western protests go on in Georgia, we take a look at the strength for the economy in a country that really desperately wants to join the European Union. President Biden’s budget plan see a big tax rise for rich individuals and companies. So how’s that going to go down?
Stephanie
What he’s promising is we’re going to have European style benefits, but still have incredibly progressive taxes, and that’s just not realistic.
BBC
And self driving cars are on their way, but how can we make them safe on crowded urban roads? And I will be joined throughout the program by two guests on opposite sides of the world. Stefanie Yuen Thio, who’s joint managing director at TSMP Law Corporation, is joining us from Singapore. And Tony Nash, founder of the AI firm Complete Intelligence, joining us from Houston, Texas. So clearly, Tony, let me come to you and ask, well, what’s going on down in Texas at the moment?
Tony
Hey, Roger. Well, we have the Houston Rodeo, which is the largest rodeo in America, and it sounds like a throwback, but it’s actually a really big deal. They raise about half a billion US. Dollars for scholarships for Texas students. So it’s a big deal here in Houston, and it sends a lot of kids to university.
BBC
Yeah, and worth watching, too, I imagine, isn’t it?
Tony
Yes, it is. Yes, sir.
BBC
But you don’t take part, I imagine, Tony. I mean, the picture in front of my mind at this moment is quite.
Tony
Last year, but I’m not good for 8 seconds on a horse, so I’ll just sit in sidelines.
BBC
The let’s hope you’re good for 60 minutes on the radio, and I’m sure you will be. Anyway, welcome both. Let’s first of all talk about what’s happened here in Europe, because really it’s a transatlantic issue. But Europe has moved to try and level the playing field for companies there who want to set up green energy projects. There’s been fears that very generous new subsidies for US firms brought in by President Biden would drain Europe of green energy projects as businesses moved across the Atlantic to take advantage of what was over there. Well, now the European Commission has relaxed the rules on state aid for projects aimed at speeding up energy storage and the use of renewable energy and wants that take out carbon from industrial processes. EU member states will have until the end of 2025 to set up their schemes. What’s your take on this? It’s your side of the Atlantic that has really upped the ante on this with the Inflation Reduction Act covers a multitude of things, but one of them is this enormous amount of subsidy, over $300 billion, and then it starts this war with the EU over it, really.
Tony
So, Roger, the first thing I want to do is start a green energy company to game both sides of the subsidy plan. Right. So I think it’s interesting. It started in the US and obviously it’s just a truckload of money, and like everyone has said, it’s just a race to get somewhere. And I think it’s really hard to believe that this race is a credible one when Germany is burning more coal than they have in decades. Right. So I think that is it going to stimulate innovation? I don’t think so, because it’s grants, right. These are grants that are being given out by government, which I think I.
BBC
Don’ think they’re necessarily direct grants. Some of them may be, but it’s a mixed picture, I think.
Tony
Yeah, it’s mixed. And so those grants will be the first to go and they’ll be given very inefficiently, and then the tax credits or the other things that are done, if they’re in small batches, then they could kind of engender some competition. But if there are very large tax subsidies to be given, then it’s just going to be pigs at a trough. That’s all it’s going to be here in the US, in Europe. Europe is not unique. It’s the same thing here.
BBC
Well, indeed, but at the same point, I’ve put to Stephanie, I mean, isn’t in the end, Tony, the problem that you can’t leave it up to the market to do something that actually matters much longer term than most markets really have anything to do with?
Tony
Oh, well, you can. When you look at emissions, the US has been well ahead of kind of targets for years, because for the most part, we’ve had markets that haven’t subsidized kind of inefficient companies to do this. Of course, we have companies like Cylindra, which was a big story 15 years ago or something, and other wasteful green tech companies. But for the most part, when you look at, say, the US auto industry, other industries, they’ve done they’ve worked very, very hard to reduce emissions. And the US auto industry, even on petrol-fuelled cars, has done an amazing job at reducing emissions. And of course, there are subsidies that go to US automotive makers, but they’re not new and they’re not a large part of the revenues that those auto makers get.
BBC
What’s the incentive for them to do this? Because there has to be some incentive.
Tony
Consumers want it.
BBC
Consumer pressure.
Tony
Why do people make a car Blue? Or why do people put a Bluetooth connection to your ipod or your iPhone in the car? It’s because consumers want it. So the more consumer pressure there is to have environmentally friendly automobiles, it moves in that direction.
BBC
That’s very interesting. But Tony, let me bring you in on this, because it is an interesting picture of a country that is in a very difficult position, caught between Russia and the west but also with an economy that clearly doesn’t basically function. It seems to be held together entirely by aid.
Tony
And wine.
BBC
And wine. The wine is very nice, don’t get me wrong on that.
Tony
Yeah. It’s in a tough position. It’s between some big powerhouses and they had a conflict with Russia a decade or so ago, so it’s a very kind of tenuous position, and it’s definitely not something that’s easy to get out of, I don’t think.
BBC
Tell me, the other thing is that being caught in the middle of very big geopolitical forces, what was very interesting, Georgia. Georgia’s economy right now seems to be run by mainly by Russians who fled from Russia, which is an extraordinary situation, isn’t it?
Tony
Yeah, it is. Roger, I’m really not sure. The basis of this protest is supposedly that NGOs have to register because of their foreign influence, foreign money. But that is required in a lot of countries, so it’s required in Singapore, for example. Right. So I’m not really sure why this is such a problem. If foreign newspapers, like in Singapore, every foreign newspaper has to be approved. Yeah, and I I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be picking on Singapore, but but this is the case in a lot of countries, and so I’m just puzzled as to why this is a problem, especially if there’s so much foreign aid there. I just don’t understand it.
Stephanie
Tony, can I hazard stephanie, come in. Yes. Yeah. Let me hazard a guess. What’s happening in the Ukraine is a very big part of the consciousness of that part of the world right now, as it is for the rest of us as well. How Ukrainians are getting their message out there, how they’re garnering support internationally, is through social media and the foreign press. So I can imagine that any move that tries to muzzle foreign ownership of media is going to look like it is a very authoritarian move. And by and large, we get worried about things like that. And Singapore has been criticized, as Tony, you’ve pointed out, for having those rules, and I can accept that. I can appreciate that that is an issue. Having said that, international interference in national issues has become an increasing thing. We’ve seen the effect of troll farms in Russia on the US elections in the past, for example. And while we think we don’t want there to be constraints on independent and credible news organizations, what if you had an Islamic State take a very large percentage of the news outlets shareholdings?
BBC
Yeah, it’s one of those issues. It has to be applied not in general, but in specifics, and then see how it plays out. And I think that is absolutely the problem in Georgia. No doubt we’ll hear more from that country… Of the Manhattan Institute. Right. Tony, I’m going to let you get your teeth into it, but I will say, first of all, there’s a sense in which this is a phony budget, isn’t it? Because he doesn’t even expect necessarily to get it through Congress.
Tony
Yeah, it’s not going to make it through Congress. I mean, it’s just not. I mean, look, the capital gains tax that he’s proposing is higher than the ordinary income tax of the US. Meaning if you work for a living and you pay taxes from your salary, the capital gains tax he’s proposing is higher than that. And so these people who are actually taking risk on investments, they’re going to pay a higher tax for putting investment money into the market. That’s just ridiculous, and that stuff won’t make it. The thought that companies are going to pay higher tax is just silly because it’s not going to happen. I mean, there are several tax attorneys who, if you believe that’s going to happen, then you need to talk to tax attorneys and understand and CPAs and understand how things really work.
BBC
You’re saying, Tony, that the taxes are not going to happen because he won’t get through Congress, but you’re saying it’s a silly idea.
Tony
I’m saying the corporate taxes won’t happen because it’s unrealistic. So companies pay tax and that’s fine, but they also employ a lot of people. They make investments, they generate intellectual property and so on and so forth. So do we want to tax them more? Sure, maybe a little bit more. But to take a plan like this and aggressively state that you’re going to make companies pay a lot more, it’s really questionable, especially as earnings are collapsing. Publicly earnings in publicly traded companies are collapsing right now, so we’re going to put higher tax on them. And you saw this in the UK when there was the pressure on Gilt six months ago, right? You can’t put this type of thing forward if you don’t have a legitimate plan. And so for Biden to say, if you don’t have a better plan, well, I have a better plan. Why don’t you tax electric vehicles for the miles they drive? Because they don’t pay any fuel tax in the US.
BBC
Yeah, but that’s not going to fill the gap, is it? I mean, if you compare these enormous companies with huge profits, some of them, particularly in the energy sector, the financials as well.
Tony
It’s net positive, right? So it’s net positive. And anybody who thinks like your guest said, people are going to game that $100 million. I mean, that’s just silly, right? Anybody who makes under $100 million, they’re going to distribute it to family and shell companies and LLCs and other things. Nobody’s going to be worth $100 million.
BBC
It’s that they tax people. The people who earn over $400,000. That was the figure, wasn’t it? That’s where the burden is going to fall. But to a lot of people, that seems very reasonable. It’s an awful lot of money.
Tony
What’s? An awful lot of money for $400,000. Yeah, but how many people who earn $400,000 are really going to pay it? Right? I mean, they will, of course, but most of them are also going to have a lot of deductions, too. So you would have to raise the standard deduction unless those guys are going to circumvent. The other really silly thing which your guest was really good at talking about was the tax on unrealized gains. Okay? So imagine if you own a stock and it’s gone up two or three times and you haven’t sold that stock yet. That’s what an unrealized gain is. So imagine this. You own a house and the value has gone up by 50% and the government comes to you and says, hey, I know you haven’t sold your house yet, but I’m going to tax you on that sale of that house anyway, right? That’s exactly what this unrealized gain tax is doing. It’s saying everybody who owns a house that’s gone up in value, the government’s going to come in and tax you on that gain in that house. And you own a house and you’re like, wait, that’s not fair.
Tony
I haven’t even got that money yet. Right? So let these guys make their gains and tax them on those capital gains. That’s fine. We don’t need to hate rich people just for being rich.
Stephanie
Also, Tony, does the house owner get it back if the house price falls?
BBC
And how do you measure it? What’s the measure of value anyway? It’s full of difficulties, clearly. Well, definitely they will find ways around it. Well, let me come back to you then, Tony, on this, because we’ve said basically what you don’t think will work with what Joe Biden is promising or suggesting. If he is attempting to increase the size of the state, which it seems he is, and perhaps a bit parallel to what’s happening in Singapore, how should he be seeking the money for that?
Tony
Well, I think the first thing he needs to do is look at why he’s hiring 17,000 new Environmental Protection Agency agents, right? I mean, you know, we need to understand why we’re hiring more people into the government rather than just putting the heads aside and saying we’re going to grow government, we’re going to be greener, and so on and so forth. There was a law passed last year that said there would be something like 70,000 new Internal Revenue Service agents. And once the new Congress came in, the first thing they did was attack that and defunded because Congress has the power of the purse. So effectively what Biden is doing is he’s trying to anchor the budget discussion. I don’t think many of these things are actually going to happen. This is a negotiation. We have the debt ceiling coming on. We have a number of other things happening with regard to federal government revenue. So all he’s doing here is trying to anchor the conversation very high. And I think what you have in Congress right now is you have a set of Republicans who are not going to negotiate with that.
Tony
What they’re doing with the budget ceiling is they’re ticking off item by item the things that they want and getting the federal government to give in on things one by one because the bureaucrats do not want the debt ceiling to be a problematic issue.
BBC
Well, yeah.
Tony
Is it likely to Republicans on things one by one? Of course.
BBC
Are we going to find the new debt ceiling problem, which seems to be.
Tony
Oh, my gosh, Roger, there’s going to be so much drama about the debt ceiling. Oh, my gosh, it’s going to be the end of the world and full fifth grade of the US. Government and all this garbage. It’s it’s not going to be an issue. It’s never going to be an issue.
BBC
Okay. Interesting. I mean, Singapore, I suppose. Tony, would you would you put your faith in in autonomous vehicles? I mean, they, they have tested some, I think in Texas.
Tony
Yeah. I was driving in Dallas probably a year or so ago, and I was on a very crowded highway, and I looked next to there was a big semi truck next to me, and it was supposedly an autonomous driven semi truck, but of course there was a driver there. And to be honest, I found it terrifying. I heard an interview with one of the grandfathers of AI. His name is Stuart Russell. This was probably about three years ago. And he has been in AI since the 70s or something, and he was involved in self driving cars in the 90s. According to him, and I’m sure the technology has come a long way in three or four years. But at the time he said that we were no further with self driving cars at the time of that interview, which I think was 2018 or something, than we had been in the 1990s. That’s extraordinary. It is. And I work for an AI company. I mean, it’s not magic. It’s code and math. And that’s really what it is. It’s computer code and math. And as Stephanie pointed out, we have trouble updating apps. Right. And so if you’re going to be moving along at 100km/h or whatever and put your faith in a car and other people’s cars, I think when everything is automated, that’s different.
Tony
Right. If we’re 100% self driving cars, then that’s a very different story. But when you have some self driving and some not, there are so many unknowns in the environment, and how can a car know if something walking along the side is a child or a mailman or whatever, right. And you just don’t know what they’re going to do. So I don’t think cars on their own have the compute power to understand what’s going on around them. I suspect that a lot of what we’re being told is marketing more than actual capability. I would really like to talk to somebody and understand if it’s actual capability, because I just don’t believe it. I want it to happen, but I just don’t believe it’s.
BBC
Isn’t it I mean, what you said they want it to happen because I certainly feel it will be hugely useful. I mean, elderly parents being able to get places, for example. But all sorts ways in which actually it’d be really useful to have such a thing. I suppose we feel. And, Stephanie, I’d be interested to get your intake on this. We feel that at this point, with all the technical know how, we have self demonstrated that we should be able to do this. I mean, it’s been a staple of science fiction films, probably going back to the 19th century, that these kind of things would exist.
Stephanie
Yeah, but I have a question on AI. We’ve been talking about Chat GPT and how biases get into it. Now, if you’re trouble, who is setting the safety standards for these self driving cars? If there is a person walking on the street, is it going to make a distinction between a minority race? If there are two people and it has to pick one to hit and it can’t stop, for example, does it pick the minority race guy to hit? What does it do?
BBC
That’s like the famous trolley example in a philosophy class. Do you run over the fat person or not? And these kind of things, which you can’t really expect, I suppose, a self driving car to think of. But I suppose that the point of this. If everything is autonomous, then, as Tony says, perhaps the issue isn’t really a big one. But I would say with all these caveats you’re putting in there, Stephanie, the fact is there are a lot of very bad drivers out there already. Is it worse to have one that’s autonomous?
Stephanie
No, I totally want to have a self driving car, frankly. I would like to not have to drive me around. I would like my husband to not have to drive around. He thinks he’s a race car driver. He’s not really that good. So I think that would be great. But I agree all the cars should be autonomous. And maybe we should have speed limits.
BBC
Well, yes. And you could impose them automatically very easily, couldn’t you? That would be one of the things. And Tony, I suppose you’re in AI. Okay, I take on board your point. You’re saying it hasn’t come people reporting it hasn’t come that far since even the 1990s. But it must be something that AI can take on, surely.
Tony
Sure, AI can take on a lot of things. But is it there right now? And would I want to drive in it right now? Probably not. And Roger, going back to your question about is it worse for a machine to, say, be a bad driver than a human? Absolutely. Yes, it’s worse.
BBC
Why?
Tony
Because the unique function of that machine is to drive you around safely. That driver person does not have a unique function, right? So if that machine is specifically made to drive you around safely, that’s the only thing it’s there for. So it should be able to drive you around safely. And until that can happen, we should absolutely not have autonomous vehicles on the road.
BBC
Okay, but take the bad drivers. Who knows what the function of the bad driver is? But if they hit you, they’ll still do damage, and that’s really what matters. Principle, surely.
Tony
Of course they will. And to go into any country and get a driver’s license. Anybody can get a driver’s license, right? And so that’s a kind of least common denominator standard. The worst driver can still get a license.
BBC
And the worst robot might be a better driver.
Tony
Yeah, but that’s that robot’s 100% job, and unless they can do it in the top, I would say, decile of drivers, it shouldn’t be on the road.
BBC
All right, well, I think they’ve got a big, long way, I think, to persuade either of you, really, that it’s happening. I think Stephanie probably would prefer it probably more than you would. I certainly would love it. Not least for the fact I can go to a lovely English country pub and after perhaps consumed a little bit of lovely, I can just get in the car and it’ll take me home. No issues. That’s what I’m all about. Anyway, thanks to both of you for being with us. Your rodeo of business Matters has been survival, I’m very pleased to say, Tony. And we’ll welcome you all back soon, I think. But thanks for listening to Business Matters. Bye.
In this BFM 89.9 podcast, CEO of Complete Intelligence, Tony Nash, discusses the February US equities market and gives his predictions for March. Nash predicts another down month for US markets, albeit not as much as February, with China also being down markedly. He also expects Malaysia to do well and increase by about 1%. Nash also comments on US earnings season, stating that the quality of earnings reported so far is not great and that only $0.88 was matched by cash flows for every dollar of profit, with some companies passing along price hikes successfully but for how long can they keep it up. Nash also discusses interest rates and a more hawkish Fed, which could lead to the dollar rising. He also comments on a newly formed House committee aimed at examining economic competition between the US and China.
Transcript
BFM: BFM 89.9. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run at 7:07 on Thursday the 2nd of March. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Chong Tjen San and Wong Shou Ning. Now, in half an hour, we’re going to discuss Malaysia’s bilateral ties with the Philippines in light of our Prime Minister currently on a visit there. But as always, we’re going to kick-start this morning with a recap on how global markets closed.
Overnight, US markets were mixed. The Dow was up marginally by 0.2%, the S&P 500 down 0.5%, NASDAQ down 0.7%. Asian markets were also mixed. The Nikkei was up by 0.3%, Hang Seng popped it up and was up by 4.2%, Shanghai Composite up by 1%, Straits Times Index down by 0.2% and the FBMKLCI was down by 0.3%.
It’s everywhere.
That’s right. Well, we’re going to try and kind of peel some trends with Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Let’s review what happened back in February. It wasn’t such a great month for US equities. We did see the Dow and SP 500 both lose 4% and 2.6%, respectively. Where do you see the stock market heading in March? Is it going to be more volatility or perhaps brighter skies on the horizon?
Tony: Oh, yeah, it’s going to be pretty choppy. Generally, we expect US markets to have a down month, not down as much as it had been in Feb, but we do expect another down month. Obviously, if the Fed comes in with a very hawkish meeting, then we could see more chop there. We do expect China to be down this month as well. That kind of goes against what we’ve seen in News early this month, but we are seeing China down markedly, say more than 2% this month as well. Good news is we expect Birth of Malaysia to be up about 1%. So while we see chop in others, we may see Malaysia do squeak out a good positive month.
BFM: And Tony, as the US earnings season starts to taper off, what is your assessment of the results that have been released so far? In particular, the most cyclical consumer-facing companies?
Tony: Yes, so the quality of earnings reported so far is not great. So for every dollar of profits, only about $0.88 was matched by cash flows. That’s the largest discrepancy since at least 1990. So that means 12% are from kind of non-cash earnings. So it’s really accounting and other things. So what we’re seeing, especially on the consumer side, is some companies are passing along price hikes, and we see some of them doing that really successfully. I think we’ve talked about that here before, where they’ll hike between eight and say 15% and their sales volume will be down maybe 5%, something like that. That’s really helped the top line and margin expansion. But the real question is for how long can they keep raising those prices and kind of sacrificing transaction volume. So there’s a real question there. But many of those companies have said they’re going to continue to raise prices into later in ’23. The problem is when we run into a company like Coals, which is a retailer here in the US that reported today, and it was all bad, they’re losing customers they’re not able to keep with their costs and other things.
For those companies that cannot pass along price hikes, for whatever reason, it’s really bad news for them. The inflation they’re importing from their vendors is just squeezing their margins, and in some cases, they’re losing money. So, I don’t think the quality of earnings improves from here for at least two quarters. That’s just something to think about as we go into the next Q1 and Q2 earnings.
BFM: Okay, I want to come back to interest rates, Tony, because I’m reading Bloomberg and it seems like the Street is now expecting a terminal rate of 5.6%. Honestly, this changes every day. It was 5.4% not too long ago. But what does this mean for the US dollar? Are we back to the reign of King Dollar again?
Tony: Well, if we see a more hawkish Fed, then I would say yes, that’s probably the case. So, what we would likely see are things like 25 basis points, at least for the next three meetings, if not longer. If we continue to see hot inflation, as we have over the past couple of days, they could do a surprise 50. I don’t think that’s what they’re going to do, but we can’t rule it out. We could also see quantitative tightening, meaning the Fed could unload more mortgage-backed securities or other things, accelerating that from their balance sheet. Because housing is still pretty hot, actually. Prices aren’t moving that much, so we could see the Fed move on MBS or some other things to accelerate that off of their balance sheet. I don’t think that’s highly likely, but it’s a possibility. All of those bode well for the dollar and dollar strength. If that happens, we would definitely see the dollar rise generally.
BFM: Can we take a look at what’s happening over in the US Congress, Tony? There’s a newly formed House committee aimed at examining economic competition between the US and China. I think they held their first hearing earlier this week. What was the outcome? And do you think, as a result, we’re just going to see more trade conflicts between these two superpowers?
Tony: Yeah, so there’s a lot of focus on decoupling from China. There will never be a full decoupling from China. I don’t think we’ll even have a majority decoupling from China. But there are some key industries, like semiconductors and pharmaceuticals, some healthcare aspects that people really do want to decouple from China because we saw through the pandemic that supply chains are very, very dependent on China. Americans want many of those core things closer to home. They’re focused on decoupling. For some reason, people in Congress are just becoming aware that the CCP is in charge of everything in China. So they’ve underestimated the influence of the CCP and they’re waking up to the fact that they’re central in China. We had a couple of former national security advisors suggesting things like accelerating the arming of Taiwan and helping Chinese circumvent the Great Firewall, those sorts of things. And then, of course, human rights. They talked about CCP police outposts that are in US cities where there are actually these CCP outposts that will pursue Chinese nationals within the US, among other things. It’s taking a pretty tough stance on China. I’m not sure to what extreme that will go and what policies will be adopted yet, but I think it’s definitely trying to at least uncover some of the things that Americans haven’t been aware of.
Keep in mind, a little bit of this is theater, right? It’s people in Congress holding hearings to publicize some of their agenda. So, I think it’s a little bit of that so that they can then move into legislation and move the needle just a little bit. I don’t think we’ll see anything extreme, but you will certainly hear some extreme talk over the next couple of months.
BFM: Yeah, but does this change the way fund managers invest? You’ve got this continuing geopolitical tension between the US and China. Is it going to stop, for example, American fund managers from buying Chinese stocks?
Tony: I think it definitely puts China as a higher risk for US portfolio managers. And certainly over the past couple of years, more US portfolio managers have become aware of the risks of investing in China as supply chains close down, among other things. So, I think you will see more of a tighter risk calibration and more weighting of risk for Chinese equities. So, it could potentially not be good for American money investing in Chinese exchanges. Absolutely.
BFM: Tony, thanks very much for speaking with us. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. As he was talking about how March is possibly going to be down, although not as down as February, I couldn’t help but think, ‘Oh, beware the eyes of March.’ But, yes, it’s still choppy out there, especially as the FOMC will be having their meeting this month. I think everyone’s going to wait and see how much they’re going to hike those rates.
Yeah, he gave some predictions on Malaysia as well. He thinks the market will possibly be up by about 1% in March, but the market has been quite disappointing in Malaysia. And he also expects the China market to be down in March by about 2%. And we spoke about the geopolitical risk which may impact US fund managers as well.
The BBC’s Business Matters podcast covers a range of topics, including the positive economic signs in the US, the Russian tech brain drain, and the potential for a new plug to be the secret to a green transition.
Guests Emily Eng, NPR’s Beijing correspondent, and Tony Nash, founder and CEO of the financial forecasting platform Complete Intelligence in Houston, provide their insights on these topics.
They discuss the impact of economic sanctions on Russia and how the country is responding to them, including increasing exports to China and reducing its crude oil supplies by 500,000 barrels per day to push up prices.
The conversation also touches on a controversial proposal by the European Commission to seize Russian assets to help rebuild Ukraine.
Additionally, the podcast covers the announcement by the US federal government that all new garages and four courts built in the country will have to include charging points for electric vehicles and its potential impact on accelerating EV adoption.
Transcript
BBC
Hi there. Welcome to Business Matters. My name is Ed Butler, and today, despite all the political rows we’ve been hearing about a potential debt default, there are more positive economic signs from the United States. This week, we read the tea leaves with a former presidential economic adviser and hear about the new incumbent in that job. Also, we consider the Russian tech brain drain, and why a new plug could be the secret to a green transition.
Emily
This will definitely help accelerate EV adoption. Charging is one of the things that really does stand in the way of someone’s decision about going electric.
BBC
All the latest on electric vehicles in the States coming up in the show, and I’m going to be joined throughout the program by two guests on opposite sides of the world. Emily eng is NPR’s Beijing correspondent, although she is based in Taiwan at the moment. Hi, Emily, can you hear us?
Emily
Yes, I can. Good morning.
BBC
Great to have you on the show. Tony Nash. He’s the founder and CEO of the financial forecasting platform Complete Intelligence in Houston, Texas. Hi, Tony.
Tony
Hi, Ed. Thank you.
BBC
Great to have you both with us. Tony Nash this is obviously a function of, to some extent of the economic sanctions that we’ve been talking about, those applied against Russia. I mean, the funny thing about this is to some extent Russia hasn’t done that badly in the last twelve months, at least initially. I mean, that’s what the headline data is telling us. You look further into the future, I mean, are you seeing a kind of more serious decline potentially with Russia now because of what’s been applied against it?
Tony
Sure, there are a couple of things to look at. First, in the four weeks in January, Russia exported more crude oil than during any four-week period in 2021. So they are recovering their export capacity to places like India, China, parts of Africa, and other places. So, you know, it really hasn’t necessarily hurt their crude exports. When you look at imports, they’ve really substituted, say, the west for China. Their imports from China have grown by, I think, $8 billion a month. It’s got to be more than that, but I saw some numbers recently, but they’ve substituted imports from China. So in terms of trade, they’ve really turned eastward and southward instead of westward, which is just a natural response to sanctions. So where they’ve hurt is domestically in terms of things like industrial production of, say, machinery and domestic goods outside of, say, coal and oil and gas.
BBC
What the west, of course, has tried to do most recently is apply these caps on Russian crude exports. Now you’re saying that they’re getting around those or are they simply selling a larger amount of crude but at a lower price?
Tony
They’re getting around them. They haven’t hit the price cap yet. The crude is trading, or what has been trading at, I think, a $20 discount to the price cap. So they’re not even hitting the price cap. There’s a $20 discount to Euros crude. What Russia on its own, announced last week is that they’ll reduce their supplies by 500,000 barrels per day. So Russia is, on its own, taking barrels off the market as a way to push up crude prices. So the volume and the price caps really aren’t having an impact necessarily on crude itself. Of course, the Russian economy is being hit. Of course the isolation, of course other things are impacting Russia. I’m not trying to say that there are no impacts at all, but in terms of that natural resources, trade, and some of the import substitution, they’re actually doing okay.
BBC
Yeah, import substitution. This is the thing, and it’s a fascinating subject, actually. I was suddenly trying to dig into this, and it’s really complicated. But Tony, one last tantalizing thought on this. An element we understand, what Bloomberg is reporting that may be part of these new sanctions from the EU is to force banks to report more information on what Russian central bank assets they are actually holding. Because of course, the EU and other countries want to know how much has been frozen in Western bank accounts that used to belong to the Russian state budget. Now, this is seen possibly as a first step towards a controversial move touted by the European Commission, not just to freeze Russian assets, but to actually seize them, to use them to start rebuilding Ukraine or to at least pay Ukraine back for the damage that’s been caused. I mean, gosh. Do you think that that could be something we’ll be looking at in the next few weeks?
Tony
I think as a threat, I guess useful as a threat, but as an actual policy, I think it would be very difficult to execute and justify. Usually, these things are seized for years or decades. Sorry, frozen for years or decades, not necessarily seized. So I think that could be a very problematic policy to carry out.
BBC
Because it would set precedents.
Tony
Yes, that’s right.
BBC
For western countries, I suppose. Okay.
Tony
And the banking system that supports Russian assets or sovereign assets, would be dangerous for people like Russia going forward.
BBC
Tony Nash, thank you for now but stay tuned to this because this is big news. If you’re a car owner who wants to buy an electric vehicle, maybe you’ve got an electric vehicle already, especially if you’re in the US. The Us federal government has said that from now on, all charges that are used in the garages and the four courts around the states must be American made and have to be usable for all-electric vehicles. That means that Tesla, which has had most of the existing charging points, they have to carry, adapters, allowing other cars to use them. I spoke earlier about this with Alexis and John of Business Insider in Detroit. Well, Tony Nash, there you are in the big oil state, famously, there Texas. How is EV adoption going in the States?
Tony
It’s great. I’m sorry. It’s great. A lot of my neighbors have EVs, and I think it’s probably not as dense as, say, San Francisco or something. But we do have a lot of EVs here in Texas.
BBC
You’ve got a lot of territories to cover, though, don’t you? I mean, if you’re a driver. We do, and I have an electric vehicle. Every time I’ve gone 100 miles down the road, of course, I’m starting to sweat at the thought that, you know, at some point I’m going to have to refuel, otherwise I’m going to stop on the highway. Tony Nash are you confident that the move to electric vehicles is going to move as fast as some politicians, I suppose particularly politicians in Europe, are saying that we can sort of phase out the internal combustion engine in the next few years and rely entirely on electric vehicles? It’s going to require an awful lot of infrastructure. An awful lot of rare earth. Exactly, that’s right.
Tony
A lot of infrastructure. I mean, I understand the aggressive plans, but I just don’t think it can happen on that time scale. So it seems to me that maybe add ten years to it and sure, that makes sense. And to be honest, ten years in terms of adoption, in terms of building this stuff is really just the blink of an eye. So sure, I think it’ll happen, but I think it’s going to take a bit longer than people right now believe.
BBC
Right, it’s going to take longer, but that’s going to leave, I guess, a lot of politicians with egg on their faces, isn’t it?
Tony
That won’t be the first time. Quite true. Especially American politicians. Won’t be the first time.
BBC
Quite true. evelyn professor Jason Furman. Tony Nash, obviously he’s speaking in an upbeat way. He’s a supporter of the Democratic cause. Are you sensing a slightly kind of warmer, more positive mood in the US right now over its economic performance?
Tony
I think the mood is tentative because inflation is affecting everything. So if we look at that retail sales number, if you look at it in inflation-adjusted terms, we actually saw a decline of retail sales by 2.3%, and it was the fifth consecutive year-on-year decline. So five months in a row we’ve seen negative retail sales if we adjust for inflation. So I think inflation really covers everything. One of the things that the professor said that I’m not really sure is right is he says the White House can’t do anything about inflation. So we have Janet Yellen, who is a Treasury Secretary reporting to the White House, who is spending $140,000,000,000 a month from the treasury general account, and it’s offsetting all of the work that the Fed is doing. So the treasury is actually putting $140,000,000,000 into markets every month to keep markets booming. When the Fed is raising interest rates and selling off its balance sheet. So the US Treasury is actually and literally offsetting all of the good that the Fed is trying to do.
BBC
It’s interesting because we got Lyle Brainer coming from the Fed right this week to the White House as an economic advisor. You’re seeing that the political executive and the Fed are basically in conflict.
Tony
Absolutely. And Lail Brainerd is very smart. She’s fantastic. But she is very much a dove. She’s very much a loose monetary policy believer. And so what Janet Yellen is doing at the Fed in terms of pumping money in through the treasury general account, Lail Brainerd would be an absolute supporter of. And so we have to be very, very careful of inflation. All of these stimulatory activities really hurt your average worker. So there’s a concept called core inflation which really takes out everything energy, food, and so on and so forth. And really all it’s reflective of is service industry wages. Okay? So what we like to see is a headline number which will say 6% or something and what we’ll talk about is a core number which may be 1.2%. All that really means is that your hourly workers are being squeezed by inflation. So when the headline exceeds the super core inflation rate it just means that your hourly workers are being squeezed. And so it’s a really tough environment for wage workers.
BBC
Okay? It’s a tough environment. The bigger issue perhaps. Meanwhile, Tony, we still have this debt default issue, don’t we? We’ve been hearing about it in the headlines. Yet another cliff edge approaching in the United States. The wearyingly inevitable to some people kind of confrontation between Republicans and Democrats in Congress.
Tony
Yeah, I think what’s happened is the US has not actually had a budget for years and my understanding is what is trying to be negotiated is for the US to actually start doing an annual budget again that gets approved by Congress which is their constitutional role. One of the other items that I know are under discussion is this Treasury general account issue. Kind of profligate spending from the treasury to support markets. So there are some issues. It’s not just about the full faith and credit of the US. Of course, nobody wants the US to default but we’ve had some pretty ugly spending patterns for the past well as far as I can remember and I think some of that is just being discussed to come under control. So the US won’t default but it’s going to take some time to come to an agreement.
BBC
Yeah, indeed it will. We’re probably just going to be talking about it for weeks and weeks and weeks.
Tony
Well, I don’t think people realize there are thousands of protests in China every year. It’s not rare to have protests in China. Some of them are local workplace protests. Some of them are bigger. There was a protest east of Wuhan a few years ago about the location of I think a plastics factory or something like that. And there was one in Guangdong about, I think, an incineration plant or something, probably four or five years ago. But there are thousands of protests in China. It’s good that this is happening, and it’s a good discussion to have, and it’s good that Western media are able to view it. So every society has protested and every society has disagreements, and China is no different. Yeah, but there are older people, and even during the COVID lockdowns, the aunties in the buildings were yelling at the people, bringing food to them, and yelling at the police. So there is a difference in the age population in China. So I just don’t find any of this surprising, whether it’s a protest or a deference to old people.
BBC
What are they yelling down at the government? I mean, is this an escalation in the sense of the language, perhaps the boldness of some of the protesting and the way it’s being put?
Tony
They’re not saying, down with the CCP. Right? So if Beijing will let local governments take the flak for local issues, that’s not all that abnormal. It’s not a daily occurrence, but it’s not all that abnormal. If they were shouting down at the CCP, of course, that protest would have been squashed, but local governments and local government officials always take the hit for these types of issues. That’s normal in China.
BBC
Okay, Tony and Emily and Tony Nash, I suppose workers, you know, if they did kick up a fuss, for example, at a handful of Starbucks stores, they are still, particularly they’re still potentially vulnerable to just being fired, aren’t they? I mean, how protected are they from that kind of retaliatory action if they were to try and organize just on a shop-by-shop basis?
Tony
Yeah, I honestly don’t know. I think that would have to do with the contracts they negotiate. As your guest said, unionizing is one thing, but getting a contract is a whole different level. So I think her interview is very interesting. And what’s really interesting to me is what is leading to this desire to unionize. People obviously don’t feel like they’re getting fair pay and fair benefits, and that’s something that really needs to be looked at across companies.
BBC
Yes. And that is what seems to be a legacy of the pandemic, partly, wasn’t it? People went home, they were kind of laid off or furloughed for often long periods, they reflected, and there is a kind of militancy that seems to have left as a legacy.
Tony
What’s interesting to me is Starbucks is supportive of this, but they’re also the company that people want to unionize under. Right? And so they have the orientation toward doing that, but they’re not providing on their own the benefits and the pay that would keep people from unionizing. So I just think it’s an interesting circular discussion. Tesla is a different story. They’re an auto company in different parts of the country, automakers are highly unionized. So I don’t think it should be any surprise to Musk that that’s happening in Taiwan.
BBC
Thank you so much for all your thoughts, your words, and your wisdom. And to Tony nash there at Complete Intelligence in Houston, Texas. My name is Ed Butler.
The Morning Run podcast by BFM 89.9 featured Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, discussing the state of the US economy, market movements, and supply chains. The podcast began with a brief overview of the previous day’s market performances. The key US markets had ended in the green, while all Asian markets were in the red, except for the FBMKLCI, which was up by 0.3%.
The podcast host then discussed with Tony the state of the US economy. The US retail sales in January increased the most in two years, and the home builder sentiment rose in February by the most since 2020. Meanwhile, US inflation rose by 0.5% in January. According to Tony, these indicators suggest that there is still demand, and consumers are still willing to spend. Companies are able to raise prices pretty dramatically, resulting in more revenue and faster growth, even if the volume of sales is slightly lower. Tony believed that the Federal Reserve will continue to raise interest rates. He felt that the Fed should have kept the foot on the brake a little more in the last meeting when they hiked by 50. He thinks that the interest rate will remain at 25 for the next three meetings, but the question is how much beyond that will they raise it.
The podcast then moved on to discuss company performance, particularly in the tech industry. Cisco delivered strong results and beat street expectations, suggesting that companies still have money for capex. Tony believed that companies are having to build out more robust technology infrastructure for their existing operations, which is good for tech infrastructure companies like Cisco. However, there is a divergence in the tech industry, with old tech like HP Enterprise and Cisco doing better than new tech like Apple and Amazon. Companies like Apple, Amazon, and Meta suffer on the ad side because there is a growing supply of ad space, but there are not as many ad dollars, and companies have generally less to allocate to marketing on a proportional basis.
Finally, the podcast touched on supply chains. Tony believed that supply chains have generally recovered, partly due to the falling demand. However, there are still challenges, particularly with logistics and labor shortages. Companies are looking at how to reduce supply chain risks and increase resilience, including reshoring and nearshoring. Tony believed that the current supply chain challenges could last up to two years, and he recommended that companies should develop more robust supply chain strategies.
In summary, Tony Nash shared his insights into the state of the US economy, the tech industry, and supply chains during The Morning Run podcast. He believes that there is still demand in the US economy, with consumers willing to spend and companies able to raise prices. The tech industry is experiencing a divergence between old and new tech, with old tech companies doing better. The supply chains have recovered, but there are still challenges, particularly with logistics and labor shortages. Companies should develop more robust supply chain strategies to increase resilience and reduce supply chain risks.
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, The Business Station.
BFM 89.9, 7:05 A.m. On Thursday, the 16 February you are listening to The Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning and Chong Tjen. Now, in half an hour, we’re going to move the proposal for Petronas to be publicly listed in order to pare down national debt. But we are going to kickstart the morning as we always do, and it looks like it’s going to be a glorious morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.
So all key US markets ended in the green. The Dow was up 0.1%, S&P 500 up 0.3%, NASDAQ up 0.9%. In Asian markets, they were all in the red, except for our very own FBMKLCI. The Nikkei was down 0.4%. Hang eng down 1.4%. Shanghai Composite down 0.4%. The Straits Times Index down 1.1%. But the FBMKLCI, it was up by 0.3%.
So for some thoughts on what’s moving markets, we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Now, US retail sales in January jumped at the most in two years, and home builder sentiment rose in February by the most since 2020. While US inflation rose by 0.5% in January. What do all these indicators tell us about the state of the US economy?
Tony
It says that there’s still demand. It says that consumers are still willing to spend and that people really aren’t slowing down. We’re seeing things like price over volume. Meaning as we see more companies report, their earnings reports, they’re able to raise prices pretty dramatically, say, eight to say 12%, generally with a volume decline of, say, one to 3%, meaning the number of sales. Okay, so these companies are choosing to raise their prices and have fewer sales, but it results in more revenue and faster growth. So consumers are willing to pay more. They’re just buying slightly less of things.
BFM
And Tony, taking all this into account, what do you think the Federal Reserve will likely do next?
Tony
Yeah, they’re going to continue to raise. I do think that Powell missed a trick in hiking 50 in the last meeting. I do think they probably should have kept the foot on the brake a little bit more as a transition from 75 to 25. But I think for 25, it’s kind of as far as the I can see right now, at least while the current pace of the economy holds up. So, you know, we’ll certainly see 25 for the next three meetings. The question is, how much beyond that will we see it?
BFM
And Tony, are you in the camp where I have seen more economists raising their forecast for US GDP growth? I see numbers jumping from 1% to 2% for the first quarter. Are you in that camp?
Tony
Our view has been 1.4 this year, so it really hasn’t changed.
BFM
Okay.
Tony
We do reforecast each month.
CI Futures covers 50+ economies around the world. You can see historical data and forecasted data in an instant, like the US GDP here. Learn more about CI Futures: https://www.completeintel.com/futures
BFM
All right. And then looking at some results right. Old tech, Cisco delivered really good numbers, beating street expectations with strong spending on tech infrastructure, suggesting that companies still have money for capex. Is this indicative that actually companies are doing better than we expected?
Tony
Well, I’m not sure it means companies are doing better because earnings generally are on a slowing trend. But I think what it means is that companies are having to build out more robust technology infrastructure for their existing operations. And that’s good for the tech infrastructure companies like Cisco. So we are at the emergence of a new tech cycle with generative AI, there’s a ChatGPT and so on. So companies are going to need more robust infrastructure to deal with that.
BFM
But then we also notice there’s a divergence right when it comes to results. So old tech like HP Enterprise and Cisco doing better versus new tech like you see results being soft from the likes of Apple, Amazon. Will this divergence continue?
Tony
Well, I think when you look at things like Apple, Amazon, Meta, these sorts of guys, part of their revenues are ad revenues. And what’s happening on the ad side is we have a growing, say, supply of ad space with different companies coming on, like Netflix offering ad models. So there’s more ad supply. There are not as many ad dollars out there, or even if you assume the same ad dollars. With inflation, people are having to make trade offs. Companies are having to make trade offs, so they have generally less to allocate to marketing on a proportional basis. But there’s more ad supply out there. So many of those tech companies where ads are a part of their revenue mix, they’re suffering on the ad side.
BFM
Turning our attention to supply chains. During the Pandemic, the world faced a series of supply chain stresses made worse by the Ukraine conflict and China’s sporadic lockdowns. Do you think that global supply chains have recovered? Are they functioning better now? Or do you still see some kind of rocky road ahead?
Tony
I’d say generally supply chains have recovered. Part of that is demand falling. So we had in the port of Long Beach, we had the volume declined by about 28% in January. So the volume of imports have have actually gone down year on year on the west coast of the US. So the demand there is slowing. We’ve seen one of the indicators is headcount cuts. Guys like Federal Express or FedEx and UPS are cutting headcount. FedEx has announced about a 10% workforce cut, which tells me those are usually the guys who see the supply chain issues first and the guys who see the slowdowns first as well. So if they’re cutting staff, it tells me that some of these things are really slowing down.
When we look at delays at Chinese port, for example, they’re about half the time of what they were about a year and a half ago. So they’re not really bad at all. And then when we look at, say, freight that’s waiting on ships that’s down dramatically to, say, Q1 of 2020 levels before all of the COVID stuff set in. There’s a great just for your listeners, keel. The Kiel, K-I-E-L, I think in Germany has a great indicators on supply chain delays. So I would recommend you guys to check that out.
BFM
And Tony, ASEAN is a key player in this global supply chain. Which countries in this region are likely to be major outperformers in that regard?
Tony
Well, you guys know Malaysia is seeing more inward investment, especially around electronics, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw some upside in Malaysia. I know the expectations for Malaysia aren’t as aggressive as, say, Indonesia or Vietnam, but it’s possible that Malaysia overperforms those expectations. Indonesia, I think there are a lot of expectations on indonesia’s outperformance partly on AG prices, but also partly on movement of some manufacturing to Indonesia, which has a pretty low base. And then Vietnam, of course, you know, we’ve seen blistering growth in Vietnam. We expect that to continue as people look for a substitute for Chinese supply chains.
BFM
And Tony, are you still a bull on energy stocks? Because if you look at the sector, it’s the worst performing in the S&P 500 today and also for the month so far. We see energy stocks all coming under pressure, I think in part due to all prices stagnating and weak earnings from some of these companies. Is it time to buy or is it time to just step back and say, hey, maybe I should cash in my chips?
Tony
Yeah, I think you have to look at the different segments of energy. So, for example, oilfield service providers, we’re starting to see upstream, meaning people who take oil and gas out of the ground starting to spend on development outside of the US. So some of these oil and gas services providers, it’s a very interesting space to look at right now because we haven’t had CapEx in so long in oil and gas. And as we get that, we could see some of these service providers do really well. In terms of oil price. I do think that we do see upward pressure. I don’t think anybody really expected that to hit in Q1, but as we end Q1 and go into Q2, we do start to see that. And I think we do see I don’t think we see two or $300 crude oil this year, but I think low 100s, 110s, high 90s. I think those are definitely within possibility and likelihood.
BFM
Tony, thanks very much for speaking with us today. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. Ending the conversation there with just a projection on how oil prices could be trending later on this year.
Yeah, so I think we’ll have to watch this space. But I want to focus on one of the names that I mentioned earlier on, which is Cisco. Right. So their results came out. In fact, it went up 8% after market hours trading because the street was really impressed with the numbers. Apparently the earnings, the last time we saw this kind of level earnings was in 2013, and that’s like a long time ago. So a lot of attention on Wall Street has been on what I call the new tech. So Amazon, meta, Apple, Microsoft, even on some level. But there’s a little bit of a shift. And I think what these names are showing is that, hey, there is still spending out there.
Yeah, I think the CEO actually said that the public sector business performed stronger than expected as compared to historically. While in the service provider category, some customers are adjusting to better delivery of the company’s products into the environment. In terms of the guidance for the next quarter, Cisco is guiding adjusted earnings of 96 to 98 cents to share and revenue of roughly about 14.25 to 14.5 billion dollars.
So currently the street doesn’t really like this name that much because there’s only 14 buys, 15 holds, and one sell. Consensus target price for the stock is $53.83. Like we say, it was already up 8% after market hours, right. I won’t be surprised. After these set of numbers, we will see quite a number of upgrades on this name because the company is already suggesting on giving guidance a more positive one.
That’s right. Their guidance is more positive for the next quarter. But turning our attention to other earnings report we have, the Canadian ecommerce platform Shopify. Shopify, in contrast to Cisco, didn’t have such a great report. They reported a loss of $623.7 million in the fourth quarter after adjusting for stock based compensation, gains on investments and other costs. The company reported earnings of 7 cents a share, down from adjusted earnings of 14 cents per share in the holiday quarter.
And revenue came in at about $1.73 billion, up from $1.38 billion. And the analysts on average expected an adjusted loss of a penny a share on sales of about $1.65 billion. The company said Black Friday sales rose close to 20% last year from 2021. And this year is working to recover from a misplaced bet that the Pandemic Field search in online shopping would become more permanent. Although he’s cut jobs, raised prices, and expanded offerings to merchants.
19 buys, 25 holes, five sells. Consensus target price for the stock, $46.48. Actually, the current share price is already above that, to $53.39 year to date. Actually, the stock is up 53%, but I think came from a very low base because 2022 was very painful for them.
All right, 07:17 A.m.. We’re going to take a quick break, but we’ll come back and cover more top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned to BFM 89.9 you have.
Been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the BFM app.
This video is a segment from a BBC TV interview. The full show is not yet available online as of the time of this publication.
The video discusses the recent lawsuit against Elon Musk regarding a tweet he made regarding taking Tesla company private. Tony Nash is being interviewed by the BBC to discuss the impact of this lawsuit on CEO communications and investor relations.
Tony mentions that many legal experts believed that Elon Musk was going to be found guilty for his tweet. He considers the tweet to be stupid, but not intentionally misleading. However, the impact of the tweet was damaging to shareholders.
Tony says that the share price of the company has risen over the last four years, despite the lawsuit, and the plaintiffs in the lawsuit were not able to prove that they lost billions of dollars.
Tony also mentions that the SEC has fined both Twitter and Elon Musk for the tweet. He says that this enforcement of regulatory laws will change the way that CEOs communicate with the public, especially in tech companies. CEOs may become more informal in their statements, even if their claims may not be true. This will make it more difficult for investors, who will have to be more cautious and do their research before making any decisions.
Tony mentions that the outcome of the lawsuit shows that executives can be more careless in their communications going forward. He says that while $40 million fine is not a significant amount, it may still lead to a reprimand from the SEC. He advises investors to be careful and do their research before taking positions in the market.
Transcript
Tony
I know a lot of legal experts thought that he was going to be found guilty. It was a stupid tweet. I think he would take it back. He wouldn’t admit that, but I think he probably would if he could do it over again. But I think it does make the landscape pretty crazy going forward where executives can say things publicly that they would be very careful of saying before. So if you’re an investor, I think you now have to look at the formal declarations, regulatory filings to find out real information. Musk has just made this an incredibly informal way of talking with people.
BBC
So you think stupid, not intentionally misleading, but it proved very damaging, of course, to the shareholders?
Tony
It did. The share price has done very well since 2018. So I don’t know what these guys were investing in to lose billions of dollars, unless it was some sort of exotic maybe option or something like that. The shares have risen over the last four years. If those plaintiffs, some of the statements that they made said they were trying to look out for their well being, these sorts of things, well, the share price has delivered over the long term. So the SEC has fined Twitter and Musk. So in terms of a regulatory environment, that’s been enforced. But did they prove that they lost billions of dollars? Obviously they didn’t because this was a jury trial.
BBC
Do you think this will change the way that Elon Musk tweets, or will it change the way that other CEOs tweet in future?
Tony
Sure, I think the voice of the CEO now can get more informal and I think especially in tech companies, I think you’ll see CEOs becoming very informal and making claims, even if they can justifiably say, “well, I thought that this was going to happen.” Right. And this is what Musk defense as well. “I reasonably thought this was going to happen, but it didn’t happen, so oh, well.” I think especially in tech, you’ll see CEOs make claims that may or may not be true, but they’re leading in that direction. So investors are just going to have to be much more wary and they’re going to have to do their research before they make take positions in markets.
BBC
But surely now that Elon Musk has done this and he’s had this, I mean, it’s a reprimand, isn’t it? It’s a public reprimand. Even if he was found not guilty, people will have to be very careful. They won’t have the same defense because of what has happened to Elon Musk here.
Tony
Right, they won’t. And again, I think it’s from a regulatory perspective and from, let’s say in investor relations or communications perspective, it all of a sudden it’s the Wild West kind of you can kind of say what you want. You can kind of say, I think we’re going to go private at a certain price, and if it doesn’t happen, you just kind of shrug your shoulders and go, well, it didn’t work out. And again, you may get a slap on the wrist. $40 million isn’t really a slap on the wrist, but you can get a slap on the wrist from the SEC. But investors again, investors have to be very careful, and investors have to do their research before taking positions. And this is really what the basis of the lawsuit was about. So those executives, I guess, can be a bit more careless in their communications. I guess that’s what it tells me with the finding of the suit, is executives can be a bit more careless with their communications.
The CEO of Complete Intelligence, Tony Nash, spoke about the recent financial events in the market. In regards to Meta, Tony mentioned that the worst for Meta’s share price is over, but job cuts are still to come. Although Meta beat revenue estimates, ad impressions rose by 20%, but the price per impression fell by 22%. Tony also discussed the recent Fed interest rate hike by 25 bips, which was expected and the market welcomed it. Tony says there are likely to be at least two more rate hikes before the current tightening cycle is over. He also mentions that the market is excited but will take a closer look at the statement once they have a better understanding.
Tony also mentioned that there is some irrationality in the market because corporate earnings have been disappointing, but investors are bought off by the stock buybacks. The oil companies, Chevron and Exxon, made windfall profits due to cheap oil and fat refining margins. The refineries were operating at 94% capacity and have crack spreads and refining margins way above normal. The oil and gas companies have not invested in infrastructure since 2014, due to governments and media bullying over ESG and cost. The only option for them is to return the profits to shareholders through stock buybacks.
Transcript
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. BFM 89.9. Good morning. You are listening to the morning run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning and Chong Tjen San. It is 7:05 A. M. On Thursday the 2 February. We were off yesterday because of Federal Territories Day, but we are back to bring you through the rest of the week. In half an hour, we’re going to discuss the probability of a Trump 2024 presidential run. But as always, let’s kick start the morning with a recap on how global markets closed overnight.
BFM
All US markets ended higher as the market shared the Fed’s 25 basis point rate increase. The dollar was up marginally by 0.2%, S&P 500 up by 1%, and the Nasdaq was up by 2%. Asian markets, they were all in the green. The Nikkie was up by 0.1%. Hang Seng was up by 1%, Shanghai Composite up by 0.9%. The Straits Times Index, it was up by 0.4%. But the FBMKLC, it was closed for Federal Territory Day
BFM
As mentioned and for some insights into what’s moving markets this morning, we’re going to be speaking to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Thanks as always for joining us. Now, markets rallied on the back of the Fed, raising interest rates by 25 bips. But before we get into that, I would want to talk about some of the corporate earnings that we saw overnight, namely coming from Meta. The markets were also quite happy with what came up there, up 18% in after hours trading on the back of better than expected sales, do you think this is the worst over for Meta?
Tony
I do think the worst in terms of share price is over. I don’t think their job cuts are over. I think they’re learning how to operate in this environment. So the last two to three years has been pretty easy for a tech company as people were kind of trapped inside and didn’t really have a lot to do. They looked for things online and ad revenue was great for Meta and ad driven companies, but what we saw in there, although they beat revenue estimates, they beat their guide by almost 3%. They announced a $40 billion share buyback, all that’s great news. And the stocks up almost 20% after hours. But keynote in their earnings release, Ad Impressions rose by 20%. Remember, they’re an ad driven business. Ad Impressions rose by 23%, but price per Impression fell by 22%. So they’re not able to push price. They’ve had to drop their price and raise their volume, which is the opposite of what we’re seeing with a lot of retailers and other firms in the US where they can actually push price in light of and accept lower volumes at higher prices.
BFM
And Tony, as expected, the Fed raise rates by 25 bips. Was this in line with what you were expecting, and are we close to the end of the current tightening cycle?
Tony
Yeah, you know, I think pretty much everyone expected 25. There was a slight chance of 50, but everyone pretty much expected 25. The market welcomed it very happily, and they’re still thinking there’s only one rate rise left. But Chair Powell made it very clear that there are a couple of more rate hikes to get to that level we think is “appropriately restrictive.” Those are his words. So we’re looking for at least two more rate hikes before this is over. And the Fed is also going likely to accelerate their quantitative tightening. Okay? So that’s taking assets off of their balance sheet, which is basically hoovering up the money supply in the US. So the market will get tighter. And do we think we’re at the end? We don’t think we’re at the end. The interest rates aren’t the only tool they can use. So the market’s very excited right now, almost a relief. But I think as they look through his statement in detail, I think they’ll take a second look at expectations.
BFM
So let’s build on that. Tony, so you’re basically saying that because when I look at how markets have performed on a year to date basis, S&P up 7.5%, NASDAQ up 12%, this very much on the back of the Fed, going from a hawk to a dove. Do you think that there is some irrationality there?
Tony
I do, actually, because, you know, if you look at corporate earnings announced so far, they’re very disappointing. And so investors are expecting easy conditions to return so that underwhelming earnings are acceptable. So what did Facebook have to do? Their EPS underwhelmed by like 55%. Okay. They had to issue $40 billion in stock buybacks. So investors are basically bought off, and that’s why the stock is rising. But many other people reporting are not seeing the sales that they expected or didn’t see the sales they expected in Q4. And their costs, meaning the cost of employees and raw materials, these sorts of things. Cost of employees are up. Raw materials are down slightly, definitely year on year, but certainly quarter on quarter, they’re down slightly. But earnings are not what people had hoped for. And that’s the real problem we’re seeing in market. So the earnings picture is not reflecting the valuation picture.
BFM
Okay, so that may be the general picture, but if we zoom into oil companies or the two largest US oil companies, Chevron and Exxon, they made more money in 2022 than ever before, posting record earnings in their latest results. How are these windfall profits achieved? And I guess how sustainable is this going into the new year?
Tony
They were largely achieved on the back of cheap oil through the SPR releases and very fat refining margins. So we’ve had refineries in the US operating at about 94% capacity, which is way over what they’re designed for. And we have crack spreads and refining margins way above what is normal. So those refineries are booking profits at a record pace. And so what do they do? If you’re an oil and gas company and the government keeps bullying you over ESG and Cost, and media keeps bullying you over ESG and Cost, oil and gas companies have not invested in infrastructure in upstream or midstream since at least 2014. So if they invest in that, they’re going to be punished. So what do they do? They return it to shareholders. So you have a $75 billion buyback, because that’s really the only option they have. Otherwise, they’re going to get punished by governments, they’re going to get punished by media, and they’re going to get punished by investors. So they have to do this.
BFM
Okay, but let’s talk about OPEC Plus because there was a meeting, and I want to talk about oil prices, because the OPEC Plus Committee has recommended keeping crude production steady as the oil market awaits clarity. What does this then mean for prices? If I look at WTI, currently $77 a barrel, down 4.5%. What’s your view, Tony?
Tony
Well, I think OPEC is taking a lot of the excitement in markets for the past couple of months has been China opening. Ever since December, right? China is going to open and save us all. And that also hit crude markets. People looking at crude prices and going, oh, gosh, China is going to open. We’re going to see jet fuel and gasoline, petrol and other fuels consumption rise dramatically. Well, the opening has been slower than people expected in December, and it’s still not happening at the pace that many Westerners expected. And so I think OPEC is looking at crude consumption and draws from storage and saying, we just need to hold off on raising our level of production. We’re in a good zone with the price right now. We don’t see a dramatic impact. We expect recessions in the west, and we expect China to come back online slowly. So we’re not going to increase production right now. And so I think that’s the prudent thing to do. If I’m an oil producer, that’s what I’m doing, because I want demand to lead production increases. I want to see that people are going to use what I’m going to pull out of the ground, and I want to see pricing pressure before I agree to drill more.
BFM
Yeah, but, Tony, at the same time, what’s interesting to me is the US. Now, during the summer season, President Biden released its reserves, right? Because pump prices were just really very high. Doesn’t this change the equation? If I’m American now, wouldn’t I want to rebuild my reserves at this current level?
Tony
Well, yes and no. The SPR release was really done to get prices down for the US Midterm Elections. That’s really all it was about. Now the SPR is depleted dramatically, so the buying that will have to happen to refill the SPR will put upward pressure on prices. So I think we have to be really careful. If China is, let’s say in March, they start to come aggressively back online and the US starts buying to refill the SPR in Q2, then that’s an accelerator for crude prices in Q2and Q3. Right. So will Biden then beg OPEC again to raise their output? Maybe. China has already forward bought a lot of its crude supply. So if the US is going to choose to refill the SPR at elevated prices, it’s really not the brightest move.
BFM
Tony, thanks very much for speaking to us. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets, commenting there on the earnings report of Apple, if not Apple, I’m sorry, Meta. That just came overnight. Apple is to come. So we’re going to be watching out for that before the week ends.
BFM
Let’s turn our attention, though, to what’s happening over in India, where the Adani saga has really taken attention by storm. Gautam, Adani’s flagship firm, called off its 2.5 billion US dollar share sale in a dramatic reversal yesterday as a route sparked by US short seller Hindenburg. Research criticism wiped out more than $80 billion off the value of the Indian tycoon stocks.
BFM
And the plunge accelerated after Bloomberg News reported credit Suisse Group AG has stopped accepting bonds of Adani’s Group of companies as collateral for margin loans. Adani Enterprises was offering shares to investors at $38 to $40 a share, but the stock closed yesterday at $26.13, which is 31% below the bottom price of the pricing range.
BFM
I think let’s take a bit of a step back, right, in terms of how important Adani is to the Indian economy in its way. They are like one of the major producers of energy, and then we’re talking about cement. They are such a huge conglomerate and their fortunes have been really tied to the rise of Nadira Modi. Right. Because the two, the Adani and Modi, are supposedly very close. And so when Adani came back with this 413 page objection, the allegations are all untrue. He also Adani took the step of saying that you’re attacking India as a nation. And then Hindenburg said, look, this has nothing to do with nationalism. Right. You’re just a company where we are not comfortable with your numbers. And then it’s this back and forth. And what was amazing was the share sale was almost going to happen. And the economists reported this is allegedly that the five largest and richest families in India were going to bail this company out by participating in the share sale, but now it’s not happening.
BFM
That’s right. I mean, that came as a big surprise, the fact that they managed to get buyers who were willing to buy these shares at such a high price compared to what the market was having. So, as mentioned, you said, Jensen, they would be buying it at a loss. But yeah, Adani said that the company’s board felt that going ahead with this share issue would not be morally correct because of that big gap in what the prices are being sold for now.
BFM
Yeah, but it was really amazing. You will never get a scenario similar in, let’s say, in America, where the richest families bail out another rich family. Right. So that’s what the economists point out, that doing business in India is very, very different. But the share price, of course, down 45% on a year to date basis.
BFM
I really wonder what they can do to build up to the levels that they were before. I mean, maybe it’s not going to happen again. So something to watch, for sure. This has taken everyone, really by surprise. The twists and turns in the saga at 718 in the morning. We’re going to take a quick break and we’ll come back with more top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned to BFM 89.9.
BFM
You have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the BFM app.
BBC Sound Music Radio Podcasts wake up to Money from BBC Five Live hello, welcome to Wake Up to Money, where the International Monetary Fund has given its assessment on the global economy. On the British economy. It’s not great news for the UK, lagging behind its peers, the IMF says, set to be the only country of a group of advanced economies to shrink this year. We’ll have a look at the detail on that.
BBC
Have a look at this breaking news this morning. First, though, just in the last few hours, we’ve got this detail from the International Monetary Fund, this global financial body that over the years, we’ve talked about the IMF bailing out certain countries that are in financial disarray, puts out its advice and its forecasts and analysis about global economies all the time. Its sort of aim is to try and have a bit of economic stability globally. And so it has its world economic outlook, which is closely looked at every three months it forecasts growth, it looks at how countries have been performing. Its forecast for growth in 2023 have actually been revised upward slightly around the world for every major, what we call G7 economies as well, these advanced economies, often those leaders of those G7 countries get round the table, don’t they, and have conversations and try to come to agreements about things.
BBC
Every country in that group has had its forecasts uplifted for 2023, except the UK. It had previously forecast a bit of growth for the UK, but now sees our economy shrinking by 9.6% in 2023. Despite this, the chief economist at the IMF has said that the Treasury’s policies are on the right track. It’s not just, of course, about forecast for the year ahead. Just seeing front page of the Guardian this morning, where this story makes the headlines there. They highlight that last year in 2022, the UK economy actually grew more strongly than the IMF predicted. So we grew up 4.1% over the year than the 3.6% it had been predicting just three months ago. We got Tony Nash with me. Chief economist at Complete Intelligence, based in Houston in Texas. Tony, thank you so much for being with us this morning. Good morning to UK time. Good morning.
BBC
Tony, let’s talk globally first about the IMF’s views on the world economy. Why has it changed its thinking so much since just a few months ago?
Tony
Yeah, there’s a view from the IMF that inflation has really turned over, that we’ve crested with inflation and things are starting on the downside. I guess the caution that I would put on that view is that goods inflation has likely peaked, but services inflation with wages rising still, we’re not necessarily out of the woods yet with services inflation. So I think there are a few more headwinds in some of these economies than the IMF has really thought through.
BBC
And when you look at effectively the rankings that the IMF put out there in terms of who’s growing, how quickly, who’s bouncing back stronger from the depths of pandemic, all of that kind of thing. Where does the UK rank in that now when you look at those tables?
Tony
Yeah, well, I think the IMF generally, they got the US right. They’re right on our forecast. Asia, they’re about right with China coming, with China opening up. I think Europe, they’re a little overly optimistic on the EU and I think the UK, they’re a little overly pessimistic on the UK. It’s a tough environment in the UK, very tough politically. Inflation and wages are serious pressures on everyone. But I do think that this IMF report for the UK, I believe, has relied heavily on the Bank of England’s assessment of the economy in November, which the bank has said that they were overly negative in that assessment and that they’ll likely upgrade their view in their next meeting. So I believe that this IMF report relied on that assessment from the Bank of England.
BBC
Which is why it’s always important to see how these forecasts actually play out at the end of the day. We’ll know that in about a year’s time.
BBC
Tony, just the mood generally of investment from businesses, from governments around the world and consumer confidence, our keenness to spend, do you notice that changing in different parts of the world now, compared to how you might have thought we were all behaving a few months ago?
Tony
Oh, absolutely. I think with interest rates rising, I think people are thinking twice, businesses are definitely thinking twice before making investments and before spending money. The UK has been a country in Europe that has not invested as much in terms of capital investment as other countries in Europe. And so I think this is probably hitting British companies harder because they haven’t invested in the fixed assets that they’ve needed over the last several years. And now when they need the production capacity, because typically investment equates to production capacity, if they haven’t made those investments with low interest rates over the past several years, it’s going to be even harder to make those investments with higher interest rates, so they have to pay more for people. So that’s the real dilemma that I think we’re seeing, especially in UK business trade offs.
BBC
Tony, thanks so much for the snap analysis there on that report coming from the International Monetary Fund. Tony Nash, chief economist at Complete Intelligence. In Houston. In Texas.
The CEO of Compete Intelligence, Tony Nash, was interviewed on BFM to discuss the current state of the US markets.
The S&P fell 1.6%, the worst decline in a month, and the tech-heavy Nasdaq snapped a seven-day rally, reversing gains of more than 1%. Nash suggests that this may be due to bad economic data, specifically PPI and retail sales falling, but also notes that consumer is still strong. Nash explains that the US economy is built on services, so people may be trying to confirm their downward bias in things, and when bad news is reported, a sell-off day occurs. Nash also mentions that if PPI falls, that should mean inflation is slowing, which should mean the Fed would ease a little and slow down on rate rises.
He also mentions that markets may be spooked by all the announcements regarding job cuts, such as Microsoft announcing they plan to cut 10,000 jobs and Bank of America telling their executives to pause hiring. Nash suggests that these job cuts are small in terms of the gap that we see in the US workforce, which is still missing millions of jobs in terms of the openings versus the available people.
Nash also mentions the yen tumbled yesterday after the BOJ went against market expectations by keeping its yield curve tolerance ban unchanged. He suggests that the BOJ is managing the yield curve to suppress borrowing costs and wants to keep it below 0.5%. Nash also mentions that Japan’s central bank is getting pressure from other central banks to keep their rates low, this means that if Japan lets their rates rise, then that would have a knock-on effect around the world and cause a repricing of government debt all around the world.
Nash concludes by saying that he expects a weaker yen, but doesn’t think we would necessarily hit those lows.
Transcript
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, The Business Station. BFM 89.9. It’s 7:06, Thursday, the 19 January, and you’re listening to the Morning Run with Chong Tjen San and I’m Wong Shou Ning. And earlier on, we did ask our listeners how traffic is like and Roberto said traffic today really smooth and super low compared to just yesterday. He loves Chinese New Year in KL. And so do we. I just love Chinese New York because I like the feasting and I like the ang bao collecting.
BFM
I get the hint.
BFM
Yes, we’re all looking at you, Tjen San. But in 30 minutes, we will be speaking to Angela Hahn of Bloomberg Intelligence on the impact of China’s reopening to Markhouse gaming and hospitality sector. But in the meantime, let’s recap how global markets closed yesterday.
BFM
After a good run, all key US. Markets ended down yesterday. The Dow was down 1.8%, S&P 500 down 1.6%. The Nasdaq was down 1.2%. In terms of Asian markets, the Nikkei was up by 2.5%, Hang Seng up by 0.5%. The Shanghai Composite Index, it was unchanged, the Straits Times Index, it was up by 0.3%, and the FBMKLCI it was down by 0.3%.
CI Futures has S&P500, Nikkei, Nasdaq, Hang Seng, and nearly a thousand other assets across equity indices, currencies, and commodities. Subscription starts at $99/mo with a monthly commitment. Learn more here.
BFM
Why are we always again and again there’s a trend here for sure. But to tell us where international markets are heading, we have on the line with us Tony Nash, CEO of Compete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Help us understand what’s happening in US markets. Because the S&P fell 1.6% is the worst decline in a month. Tech heavy Nasdaq snapped a seven-day rally, reversing gains of more than 1%. Is this just really due to bad economic data?
Tony
Yeah, we saw PPI and retail sales fall today. The weird part is consumer is still strong. The US economy is really built on services, so I think people are trying to confirm their downward bias in things. And whenever we see bad news, we see a sell off day. So I’m not necessarily sure I would read that much into it, aside from just there was really nothing else going on. So people saw some bad PPI news and they were negative. So if we see downward PPI, that should mean inflation is slowing, which should mean the Fed would ease a little. Not ease, but would slow down on rate rises a bit. So that should have been positive news for markets. So it’s just kind of a weird read of some of that data.
BFM
Do you think markets are also spooked by all these announcements with regards to job cuts? Because Microsoft says they plan to cut 10,000 jobs. Amazon of course, made announcements last week, and even Bank of America is it telling their executives to pause hiring. Not great for the mood on Wall Street?
Tony
Well, maybe, but I think those job cuts are actually kind of small in terms of the gap that we see. So the US is still missing millions of jobs in terms of the openings versus the available people so I think there’s something like 7 million jobs open. We also had a million people post COVID not come back to work. So we have a gap in the workforce, just a status quo workforce of a million people, but we have something like 7 million open positions. So when Microsoft lays off 10,000 people or Goldman lays off 4000 people, sure, it’s tragic. It’s definitely tragic for those individuals. But in terms of the overall health of the economy, it really doesn’t make that much of a difference.
BFM
And Tony, the yen tumbled yesterday after the BOJ went against market expectations by keeping its yield curve tolerance ban unchanged. What possible reasons would the central bank have for keeping this status quo?
Tony
Yes, so the BOJ is managing the yield curve to suppress borrowing costs and they want to keep it below kind of 0.5%. There have been some hedge funds and some big investors who’ve been betting that they would tighten it. And the BOJ is just bigger. I mean, when they came back and they said, we’re going to hold the line at 0.5, they spent about $100 billion so far this month to defend that and they have plenty of resources to hold that. So the release issue is this is if Japan lets their interest rates rise, then Japanese, say, banks and pension funds and other investors would consider selling debt from other parts in the world and buying Japanese debt. Okay, so if Japan lets their rates rise, then that would have a knock on effect around the world and that would cause a repricing of government debt all around the world. So it’s not just the BOJ wanting to keep this for Japanese domestic reasons. They’re getting pressure from other central banks to keep their rates low.
BFM
Okay, Tony, but what does this then all mean for the yen? I mean, at its worst point, the yen was trading 150 against the US dollar. Today it’s 128. That’s a very wide range in just a few months. So what are your expectations?
Tony
It is yeah, certainly I would look for a weaker yen. I don’t know that we would necessarily hit those lows. But the BOJ has made their stance clear. The BOJ has a new head coming in in a few months. I would say they’re unlikely to dramatically change policy with a new head because they don’t want to make people nervous. So I think they’re going to aggressively defend the status quo. So I don’t necessarily think you see a yen appreciating dramatically from here. I think the bias is really toward the downside.
BFM
Okay, staying on the topic of currencies then, what’s your view on US dollar? We’re just looking at the Bloomberg Dollar Spot Index this morning. It’s already down 1.5% on a year to date basis. The era of King dollar, is it over?
Tony
Well, I think not necessarily. If you’re looking at the DXY, it’s really heavy on the euro. And so we’ve seen Europe do better than many people thought through the winter because we haven’t had a cold winter there and energy prices haven’t bitten as hard as many people thought they would. So I think Europe is doing better and the Euro is doing better than many people thought. And everything in Currencies is relative. China is opening, although it’s gradually. China is opening. And so that’s good for CNY. Again, in a relative basis, I think there is downward pressure on the dollar, but I don’t necessarily think we’re over on that. I don’t think we’re heading straight down to, say, 95. I think we’re going to see some back and forth over the next couple of months as we figure out what the forward trajectory of the dollar is. And a lot of that really has to do with what direction will the Fed take in terms of their rate hikes and their quantitative tightening. And it has to do with treasury activity from the US. Treasury. How will they spend, what will they do, how will they fund the US government?
BFM
Tony, some analysts are saying that without a recovery in the Chinese economy, a global recession is all but assured. But what are your thoughts on this?
Tony
I don’t necessarily think that’s the case. I think China will do okay this year, and I think regardless, Europe will likely dip into recession this year, although fairly moderate. In the US, you see a very strong employment environment. And so employment is one of the key considerations for recession. So I don’t believe the US. Will dip into recession really on the back of employment news more than anything else. And so once we see some of these layoffs with larger companies and we get through this as, say, equity valuations stabilize, I think we’ll start to see a renormalization in the US economy as the Fed kind of takes the foot off the brake of the US economy. Of course, the Fed will continue to raise rates, but they’ll do it at a much slower pace, and that will make people much more comfortable in doing things like investing capital and so on and so forth, that will help the US to grow.
BFM
All right, thank you very much for your time. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his outlook for the world economies and also markets in the coming weeks. I think very much the question everyone has on their mind is Fed rates. What is the terminal rate? Will they basically raise rates too much and then cause the US. Tip into a recession? But I see increasingly our guests, our commentators sounding a little bit less pessimistic, hinting that perhaps we’re going to have a soft landing rather than a hard landing.
BFM
Yeah, I think it’s really on the back of the really still strong employment in the US. I mean, he did mention there’s still 7 million jobs available in the US. And there are one million people post COVID that didn’t come back to work. And I think that really is his key point, that the US may not slip into recession, but it looks like EU will and China, it looks like they are really on track to a better recovery this year. I’ve seen some economists say that GDP growth could be like five to 6% as well.
BFM
I see that consensus figure that range is around there for China’s GDP for 2023. Now, turning our attention to corporate that released results they reported, which is Alcoa excuse me, which is aluminium company. They reported fourth quarter results earlier today, which saw losses narrow to $374,000,000. Loss per share as a result was $2.12. The loss included a 270 million charge related to tax expense. Revenue did decline 20% to $2.66 billion.
BFM
And Alcoa attributed the decline in revenue to lower prices for both Alumina and aluminium. Additionally, Alcoa will see some executive leadership changes effective February 1, including CFO William Oplinger reassignment to chief operations officer, in addition to his executive vice president role.
BFM
Okay, the street doesn’t really like this stock when you look at Bloomberg. Five buys, only seven holes, no sells. Consensus target price for the stock, $52.18. During regular market hours, the stock was already down one dollars. And now I think we need to talk about one of the world’s biggest companies, Apple. They are expanding their smart home lineup, taking on Amazon and Google. Are you surprised by this move?
BFM
Jensen not surprised at all. I think Apple is really the leader in terms of innovation, and we’ve seen it over the years, so no surprises there. So I think they’re launching some new devices. There’s a smart display tablet, there’s a HomePod. There’s a TV box and a MacBook and Mac mini using their cutting edge new processor, which is the M Two chip.
BFM
Are you going to buy any of these gadgets? You don’t even use an Apple phone. You haven’t joined a cult. You’re about the only one on the morning run. You and Philip sees that hanging on.
BFM
The iPad at home, but they’re quite old.
BFM
Okay, but will this make a dent to Apple’s earnings? Perhaps. I think they are trying to diversify their product range, because the iPhone, I think, hasn’t done as well as expected. If you look at Apple or Cost, still a darling on Wall Street. 36 buys, eight holes, two sells. Consensus target price for this to $169.24. At regular market hours, it was down seventy three cents to one hundred and thirty five dollars and twenty one cents. I, for one, will be curious as to what these products will be or how they’ll fare. Up next, of course, we’ll cover the top stories in the newspapers and portal. Stay tuned for that. BFM 89.9 you have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the BFM app.
The minutes from December’s FOMC meeting have been released. Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence gives us his insights on what this means for the pace of rate hikes in the US. He also gives us his views on the oil prices as black gold has fallen by 9% in the last two trading days.
In this episode of BFM 89.9’s “Morning Run” podcast, hosts Shazana Mokhtar and Wang Xiao Ning recap how global markets closed overnight and provide insight on where they may be heading. They also interview Tony Nash, the CEO of Complete Intelligence, to get his thoughts on the state of international markets and trends to watch for in 2023.
The hosts turn to their interview with Tony Nash, who is on the line to discuss the Fed’s intentions on rate hikes and the impact on the dollar. Nash mentions that the Fed’s notes from the December FOMC meeting clearly communicated that there is no expectation for a rate cut or pivot in 2023, as no participants anticipate it would be appropriate to begin reducing the federal funds rate target in 2023. Nash also notes that while markets ended higher, people will realize that there will likely be a number of 25 basis point hikes in 2023 to ensure that inflation subsides.
Wang Xiao Ning then asks Nash to explain what’s happening with the dollar, as it gave back half of Tuesday’s gains despite the hawkish FOMC minutes. Nash explains that it is not only the Fed that is affecting the dollar markets. He adds that treasury actions and hopes for a stronger China also play a role, as well as concerns about China’s slower opening, which has hit the dollar as there were hopes that an accelerating China would help to strengthen US exports and economies around the world.
The hosts then ask Nash to share his outlook on some of the trends that have dominated 2022 and how they might play out this year, specifically the Ukraine conflict and its impact on agri and metal commodities. Nash explains that if we assume no major escalation, no major drought, and a relatively status quo war continuing, he expects wheat prices to rise by 15% to 20% between now and Q2 2023, however he doesn’t expect wheat to show any rise by the end of the year and expects slight down pricing. Additionally, he expects industrial metals prices to drop as a result of the slower China open and recession expectations around the world, while oil is expected to remain relatively stable.
Overall, the podcast provides a good overview of the current state of global markets and insight into what may be coming in 2023. Tony Nash provides expert analysis on the Fed’s plans for rate hikes and the impact on the dollar, as well as trends to watch for in commodities such as wheat and industrial metals, and the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.
Transcript
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The Business Station.
BFM
The World Market Watch is brought to you by CIMB Preferred.
SM
BFM 89.97 06:00 a.m. on Thursday 5 January 2023. You’re listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wang Xiao Ning taking you up to 10:00 a.m. This morning. But as always, let’s kick start the morning with a recap on how global markets closed overnight.
WXN
Oh, it was a much better day in the United States because the Dow was up 0.45%, and SP 500 was up by 0.8%. NASDAQ was up by 0.7%. Meanwhile in Asia, a bit of a mixed day. Nikkei was down 1.5%, Hang Seng was up by a whopping 3.2%. Shanghai was flat because it was only up by 0.2%. Same for the Straits Times Index. It was down 0.1%. And our very own FBMKLCI was down by 0.3%.
SM
So for some thoughts on where international markets could be heading, we have on the line with us Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. And a happy New Year to you. Now, we’re going to start with what news is coming from the US. The minutes from December’s FOMC meeting were released last night. Did they give any clues to the Fed’s intent on rate hikes in the coming weeks?
TN
Yeah, the Fed notes are communicating that hopes for a rate cut or a pivot are over-enthusiastic. So the minutes, and this is a quote from the minutes they say “no participants anticipated that it would be appropriate to begin reducing the federal funds rate target in 2023.” So there isn’t a single one. Even the doves who are on the Fed are not thinking about pulling back rates in 2023. So I think markets ended higher. But I think as that settles in, I think people are going to realize that we’re going to see a bunch of 25 basis point hikes going into 23 to make sure that inflation subsides.
WXN
Okay, but Tony, help me understand what’s happening about the dollar because the FOMC minutes were more hawkish, yet the dollar gave back half of Tuesday’s gains. What’s going on here? It’s rather strange, isn’t it?
TN
It is. I think well, if you see, sorry to say here, I think what’s happening is there’s treasury action that is reducing the dollar value. I also think that we’re not necessarily seeing the full impact hitting the dollar markets. Now, if you look a DXY, that’s mostly looking at the Euro values, of course. Right. So we’ve seen the Euro strengthen and the pound strengthen. So I think there is concern about China’s opening slower that’s also hitting the dollar because there have been hopes in the US that an accelerating China would help to strengthen, say, US exports and economies around the world. So that could be hitting the dollar. Other mechanics are happening, but I think generally it’s not necessarily the Fed that’s hitting the dollar today because I think these are just, I guess, forward-looking expectations. Nobody thought there would be a rate cut, say, in the next three months. People have really all been talking about it, say, in the six-month horizon or longer. And what you’re seeing in dollar markets isn’t necessarily reflecting Fed comments because it’s kind of long-term.
SM
And let’s take a look at some of the trends that have dominated 2022 and how that might play out this year. If we look at the Ukraine conflict, it caused massive supply shocks for Agri and metal commodities when it began last February. What’s your outlook for those same commodities as the war drags on into 2023 with really no foreseeable end in sight?
TN
Yeah, if we assume no major escalation, no major drought, those sorts of things. So a fairly status quo war continuing, we do expect things like wheat to rise to go into Q2. We expect a 15% to 20% rise between now and, say, sometime in Q2. But we don’t expect wheat by the end of ’23 to show any rise. We expect a slight down pricing in wheat by the end of the year. Industrial metals prices, because of the slower China open and because of recession expectations across the west, there is a feeling that industrial metals won’t necessarily come back in ’23. So, again, it’s a fairly moderate outlook for industrial metals. If central banks were to change their course, that would, of course, change the industrial outlook and the consumer spending outlook. But as things look now, they don’t necessarily look either industrial metals or AGS don’t necessarily look to accelerate as they did in, say, Q2 or Q3 of ’23.
WXN
Okay. The other thing I want to look at is oil prices, because on a year-to-date basis, if we look at brand crude down 9%, WTI is down 8%. That’s quite a shocker, considering it’s only 5 January. Can you help us understand what’s driving this weakness?
TN
Yeah, again, there’s been a lot of expectation that China opening rapidly would have an impact on things like jet fuel, petrol, on crude oil. And as we see that openings slow down because of rising COVID cases, there is fear that the demand side of the market won’t necessarily come back. There have also been some pieces here in the US. Come out over the last, say, a few days talking about the demand. Expectations for crude have been a little bit exaggerated. And today there was a prominent investor out saying that he expects crude to fall pretty dramatically this year. So, you know, I think what we’ve seen over the last, say, six months are expectations that going into ’23, we would see a shallower recession and we would see supply side factors that would push crude prices up. I think right now, you’re seeing investors take another look at that and question that hypothesis.
SM
A spike in oil prices would negatively affect a lot of oil-importing countries in Asia, like Japan. With the Japanese currency already under severe pressure, would this be the last straw that breaks the yen’s back?
TN
Well, I don’t think so. No. I think our outlook at Complete Intelligence is for crude to hit about $100 by, say, April. Certainly in the second quarter. I don’t think $100 or say $130 crude would hurt Japan. The BOJ and the Finance Ministry have plenty of resources to deal with. One hundred dollars to one hundred and thirty dollars crude oil. If we were to see something like $300 oil, which would be extreme and very much outside of our view, that would stress not just Japan, but it would stress a lot of countries, not just in Asia, but across the world.
WXN
But what’s your outlook for the Japanese economy, though? Because if you look at them as a country, the first time you’ve ever seen inflation rates rise, the Bank of Japan has taken a slightly more hawkish tone. So what’s your outlook for their economy?
TN
Well, yeah, I think that move in Japan, the slightly more hawkish tone was more about preparing for the next BOJ head instead of a dramatic policy change. So there was a little bit of preparation for the next person so that they could maybe change the policy slightly hawkish if they wanted to. So in general, for Japan, in terms of growth, we see the first half around one and a half, one to one and a half percent. But in the second half, we see it slowing slightly to, say, just over 1%. So in general, look at about a 1.41.31 .4% growth in 23 in Japan. So it’s not a stellar year, but it’s not a terrible year either.
SM
Tony, thanks very much for speaking with us. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks and for the year ahead, covering things like the Fed interest rates, oil price trajectory, as well as the outlook for the economy in Japan.
WXN
Yeah, well, the year started quite rocky, especially for oil. But I do keep hearing more and more analysts saying, look at the commodity space, especially when it comes to the metals because China is reopening. But even on a year-to-date basis, metals, actually most of them, are still down. The only ones that are up at the moment are nickel and gold, which is just up. Nickel is up 3.5%, while gold is at 1.6%.
SM
So if we take a look at some of the other headlines that have caught our eye this morning, I see that Salesforce is planning to cut jobs by 10% and close some offices after rapid pandemic hiring left it with a bloated workforce amid an economic slowdown. They hired too many people, and now they need to cut jobs to maintain their bottom line.
WXN
Okay, so let’s remind everybody, what is Salesforce? They are a cloud-based software company. They were one of the winners during the Pandemic. It was a work-from-home kind of champion. But since then, their share price has come under a lot of pressure. And I think the question is, this type of company, were they too aggressive when times were good? And the answer is yes. But it looks like they weren’t the only ones, right? Because Amazon also did it. There’s now job free. There’s no more hiring. When it comes to Microsoft, it’s the same at Meta. So I think all these technology companies are kind of looking ahead and saying, hey, the outlook isn’t so positive. So the one thing we can control is our cost. And in the US, actually firing people is extremely easy. There’s hardly any legislation or protection. So that’s what they’re doing.
SM
And a question I think everyone’s asking is, when will these job cuts start to affect the unemployment rate in the US? And that’s when we start to see the unemployment rate go up, inflation goes down. I think that’s sort of where the Fed will then maybe start to look at reducing its rate hikes or starting to cut interest rates again.
WXN
But the point is, there’s always a lag effect, right? And the question is, how long is this lag effect? And then by then, would the Fed have been overly hawkish? Would it have raised rates by so much that it has paralyzed the economy? So that’s, I think, the challenge that the Fed is facing now.
SM
Indeed. Indeed. All right, 717 in the morning. We’re going to head into some messages and when we come back, we’ll continue looking at the top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned. BFM 89.9, the World Market watch, is.
BFM
Brought to you by CMB Preferred moving forward with you, visit cmbpreferred.com for their preferential services beyond banking.
BFM
You have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same, download the BFM app.
