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In the current Week Ahead, Harris Kupperman (Kuppy) of Praetorian Capital discusses his hypothesis that crude oil prices may reach $300 per barrel due to a decrease in supply resulting from environmental regulations, a lack of investment, and government actions. Kuppy also argues that high demand for housing in the US, driven by population growth and migration, will lead to a positive outlook for the housing market. However, he notes that high mortgage rates could impact the market, but a pause on interest rates or an acceleration of inflation could lead to a more favorable outlook. Kuppy suggests that the US housing market may see a shift towards lower-priced homes with fewer amenities in order to accommodate growing families. He also highlights the attractiveness of housing markets in emerging markets due to high interest rates and positive real yields on property appreciation.
Next, Brent Johnson of Santiago Capital discusses recent policy changes by the Bank of Japan (BOJ) and the market’s reaction to them. Brent argues that the changes, which included increasing the amount of quantitative easing (QE) and widening the range within which the yield curve control operates, were not a real policy change and that the market misread the situation. He suggests that the BOJ is trying to avoid a repeat of earlier this year, when rising interest rates caused chaos in the Japanese banking system and the market had to be halted. He also discusses the challenges central banks face in balancing the bond market and the currency market, and the impact of these challenges on the yen.
Finally, Tracy Shuchart of High Tower Resource Advisors talks through the relationship between oil demand and household savings during economic recessions, stating that past recessions have not significantly impacted oil demand. She also covers the potential long-term effects of declining population rates on global energy consumption, then comments on the potential for energy consumption to increase in the short-term, citing data from the International Energy Agency and discussing the impact of economic stimulus on household savings and consumption.
Key themes
1. $300 crude & (still?) bullish housing
2. Japan’s “normalization”
3. Recession & oil demand elasticity
This is the 47th episode of The Week Ahead, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.
Follow The Week Ahead panel on Twitter:
Tony: https://twitter.com/TonyNashNerd
Kuppy: https://twitter.com/hkuppy
Brent: https://twitter.com/SantiagoAuFund
Tracy: https://twitter.com/chigrl
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Transcript
Tony
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Week Ahead. My name is Tony Nash. Today we’re joined by Harris Kupperman. You may know him as Kuppy on Twitter. We’ve also got Brent Johnson and Tracy Shuchart. Kuppy is with Praetorian Capital. Brent Johnson, of course, is with Santiago Capital. And Tracy Shuchart is with High Tower Resource Advisors. So, guys, thank you so much for joining us. I think this is going to be a great discussion.
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We have some key themes here. The first, really looking at some of Kuppy’s discussions lately, looking at $300 crude, and kind of still with a question mark, bullish housing? I think that’s the first thing we’re going to jump into.
Then we’re going to look at Japan’s normalization. We had some news this week with BOJ Chair, kind of starting to normalize the Japanese money supply environment. So we’ll jump into that with Brent. And then we’re going to look at recession on oil demand elasticity with Tracy.
So, guys, thanks again for joining us. I’m looking forward to just a great discussion today.
So, Kuppy, you know, you have posted quite a lot about $300 oil in your newsletter and online. And, you know, there are a lot of, we had a show last week that was full of oil bulls. I don’t know that anybody particularly said $300. So I’m really curious about your $300 call. Can you walk through your thesis and just help us understand what you’re thinking?
Kuppy
Yeah, sure. I mean, overall, oil is just like all the commodities. It’s supply and demand. And since 2014, no one’s really invested and the supply side is really constricted. You have ESG mandates. You have lack of capital from institutional investors. You have banks that won’t lend. You have governments around the world that are canceling pipelines and canceling permits. And now you have UK talking about excess profits, taxes. That’s not an environment for guys to go explore and drill. And the thing about oil is that if you’re not drilling new wells, they decline over time. And so the question keeps being, where does the oil come from? People just think that the US. Shale, you can flip a switch and barrels show up. And maybe that was the case a decade ago, but that’s not how it works anymore. We’ve really hit the best acreage.
And from here on out, not only are you working mostly at tier two locations, but you’ve seen massive inflation in terms of oilfield services and those wells that everyone used to lie about and say it had 100 IRRs at 60, what we learned is they don’t break even at 60. And now you have massive oilfield inflation. I don’t know if you have decent IRRs at 80 or maybe even 100 in a lot of these places.
And I mean, it’s no secret why no one’s drilling. The numbers don’t work. And then, you know, you flip it to the other side on the demand side. Look, 6 billion people want the same standard of living and the same energy per capita utilization that all of us have. And you could have said this decades ago, but what’s changed is that they’re all in that part of the S curve where their per capita consumption explodes. I mean, look what’s happened in India. We’re having, I guess, a global recession this year, but demand is up teens.
You look all around the world, Africa, LatAM and demand is up. Even in the US demand is up. And so demand grows one or 2 million barrels every year. And where is the supply going to come from? What we’ve seen, like I said, is the supply is restricted. And even if you try to add supply, it takes a couple of years.
And so I think you’re going to have a massive mismatch. And what’s hidden that for the last year is that China has been offline. That’s two or 3 million barrels. The SPR is globally of about a million, million five. So you’re really looking at, let’s call it four and a half million barrels. That that’s been kind of like subsidizing the balances.
And, you know, you could debate, you know, exactly what the number is, and it moves around some. But for the most part, you’ve had this weird subsidy to the oil price, and I don’t think that’s going to be there next year. China has been pretty clear they’re opening and the SPR is empty. Meanwhile, Russian production is in free to fall after the US firms left. That’s another million. And like I said, global demand grows a million or two a year.
And I don’t think we can see much growth on the supply side. I think you’re going to have a four to 5 million barrel deficit, and that’s one of the biggest deficits in 40 years. And it may even be as large as we saw in World War II as a percentage of total consumption. And I think the price is going to scream out of control. I don’t think 300 is the clearing price long term, but I think you could get there in a super spike, especially given how much structured products out there that’s synthetically short. So that’s how I see it, and that’s why I’m so bullish.
Tony
Okay, so is your time frame for ’23 for the $300 price, or is that just kind of a longer term target?
Kuppy
I think it’s like the next year or two.
Tony
Okay.
Kuppy
Like I said, we’re going to have massive supply demand mismatch next year, and I think it’s going to scream out of control. There’s some things we could still do. They’re going to jump some more SPR. Maybe there’s some things around the margin they can do. But in the end, if you’re structurally short oil and there’s no oil to be had, I think the price goes crazy. And you always have a geopolitical kind of upside there to whatever happens to the price of oil, because it’s never really the downside, but it’s usually the upside if something crazy happens.
Tony
Right. Okay. We just had Zelensky speak to US Congress this week here in the US. And it doesn’t really sound like the war there is slowing down. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. I don’t know that we get a clear picture anyway, but I think there are a lot of assumptions that that will calm down next year for some of these guys who aren’t seeing super high oil prices. If that war intensifies, does that speed up your $300 price target, or does it affect it at all?
Kuppy
I don’t think it affects it at all. I mean, Russian oil is still making its way to the market. But US technology for the Russian oil fields isn’t. And so Russia is going to be in slow motion decline in terms of production, and I don’t really see what would change in the Ukraine situation. I think it’s very likely that as soon as the ground freezes there, those half million conscripts will be set loose behind the Ukrainian army and kind of surround them all. The only reason that Ukraine is still in the war is really just because it’s been kind of warm there. I think it doesn’t look very good, but that’s like more of a personal view. But I don’t think it really matters who wins this war. In the end, Russian production is rolling over.
Tony
Right, okay. And is there a possibility of, let’s say, a load of investment going into Venezuela in the short term and that volume that supply, hitting markets to save markets? I’m just trying to kind of figure out, is there a near term supply side solution?
Kuppy
Not really. I mean, who wants to invest in Venezuela? You can get a bunch of pieces of paper with guarantees, but the history…
Tony
Chevron does, of course.
Tracy
No, but it’s absolutely true. I mean, it would take billions. And it’s still the problem is geology there? And what’s going on…
Tony
Explain that. When you say the problem is geology.
Tracy
It’s not only their infrastructure which is decrepid after, it’s also geology. Right. They have very sludgy oil. It’s very hard to get out of the ground. So even with investments, you’re facing an additional challenge of the geology there being very, very difficult. And so that’s just going to add. So anybody thinking that Venezuela oil is going to change this dynamic is off base, in my opinion.
Tony
Okay, and then Africa supplies other stuff. There’re Brazil. There isn’t really anything that can be accelerated on the supply side. I’m just trying to poke through this, guys, just to get a better view.
Kuppy
I think you’re going to see an increase in offshore oil production around the middle of this decade. Guiana, Suriname, West Africa, Brazil, it’s all coming online. But it doesn’t come online fast.
Tony
Right?
Kuppy
Well, you have a lot of places that are rolling over or really struggling just to stand in place. I think we should look at is what’s happening in Saudi, where they’re frantically procuring every jackup that could be had globally. They’re going off into the Gulf. I mean, if their oil production was stable or they thought they had more onshore, which is the cheap stuff, they’d just be drilling more onshore. The fact that they’re going into the Gulf, it’s an increase in complexity and cost means that their existing fields are now getting old. And it’s obvious they’re old. They’ve been going for 70 years, but they’re finally seeing that water cut really pick up and they’re starting to panic. No, I think you have a lot of problems everywhere. Plus you have some swing places. Iraq, Libya gets cut off again from exports. You have a bunch of places where you could lose a million barrels in a hurry.
Tony
Okay. No, it sounds pretty ominous, actually. So I’m trying to find ways to push back on that. But again, we have some really smart folks last week, including Tracy, who had a similar thesis, maybe not 300, but a similar thesis. And I think what you’re saying, Kuppy, makes a lot of sense.
Kuppy
I think the pushback is really that something could happen on the demand side where you have a global economic crisis. They lock us down for monkey pox or the next pox they invent. Something like that is what I’d be looking at in terms of the wild card where demand falls off. But all it really does is postpone things. I mean, look, it’s December. 2023 budgets are being set at all the majors, and they’re being set in the context of mid 70s WTI. Do you think board of directors are going to approve an increase in spending? Like, I think 2023, and as a result of ’24 production, at least onshore US, is kind of baking the cake based on @75 price today.
Brent
Hey, Tony, I typically would defer, and I will defer on all things oil to Kuppy and Tracy, but I would say that to be completely truthful, I actually shorted a little bit of oil this morning. And it’s just a tactical thing. It’s not a huge deal. If it goes against me, we’ll stop out and it’ll be fine. But what Kuppy just said, I think could happen. The interesting thing is I think it’s possible we do get this demand shock right, and we get some kind of a global slowdown in the first half, which could potentially push oil a little bit lower. But if that were to happen, I would then, well, I already do agree with Kuppy’s thesis kind of medium to longer term. I think he’s kind of nailed the overall structural issues and why it is. And I would just say that if we do get kind of a short term demand drop that pushes the price lower, that could actually help to cut supply even more because firms go bankrupt or they can’t invest or whatever it is, and then it constricts supply even more, and then you get a military action. And in my opinion, that’s how you get oil at $200 or $300. I tend to agree with the Kuppy’s overall position.
Kuppy
You’re just talking about the slingshop, right?
Brent
Yeah, that’s exactly right.
Tracy
Absolutely. And you have to realize that if we have the lower oil prices we have and gasoline prices we have, that increases demand in a supply side constricting environment. So that’s where you get your selling shot. So it really depends on, I think, how you’re trading this definitely depends on your time frame. If you’re longer term, that’s one thing. If you’re shorter term, I think oil is going to be volatile for the next few quarters.
Tony
So because we’re actually talking about $300 oil, I think it’s Citi who always does the extremes in crude. So now we’re going to have a Citi report that says $500 oil. Right. Thank you.
So, Kuppy, you also had a very interesting call on housing. And when I sent out the Tweet about this recording, I had some questions about your housing call, your bullish housing call. And I want to ask, are you still bullish housing? And can you go into that thesis a little bit either way? What’s your thinking on US housing now?
Kuppy
I’m bullish US housing. Structurally, you have a shortage of 5 million homes. This is population growth, especially people my age a little younger that are starting families and they need homes. And there’s been a lot of migration in the US. And so you need a lot of homes in Texas and Tennessee and Florida and not where these people are fleeing from. And so as a result, there’s just strong demand for homes. At the same time, if you take mortgages up to 7%, no one could afford a home.
And so we’re having a bit of a pause as the Federal Reserve kind of intercedes in the housing market. And it’s kind of like a Brent Slingshot in oil. All you’re going to do is make the problem worse if you’re not building enough homes for the demand. Because the demand keeps growing, the population keeps growing and so they’ve kind of postponed us a little. You’ve seen rent spike out of control, though. That’s kind of stabilizing a little just with the economy kind of slowering. But no, I think the housing market is going to do very well, but it’s going to need a pause on interest rates or an acceleration on inflation.
I mean, you could look at a lot of emerging markets where you can’t borrow for 30 years, you can’t maybe get five years and you’re going to pay 15% interest rate on that. But you know what? They’re having huge demand for housing because if inflation is 20 and you fund it at 15 and you get put a couple of terms of debt on that, well, you’re making 20 30% on your equity. That’s a good place to be as a 25 year old guy or 30 year old guy with a family trying to get a home.
Tony
Yeah. When people don’t understand why real estate is so attractive in Asia and why, say, Hong Kong homes or Chinese homes or whatever, why you always have this inflationary environment in real estate in Asia? What you talked about, Kuppy, is exactly why. I think it’s very hard for people in the US particularly to understand why real estate in Asia is so appealing. And it’s exactly for that reason.
Kuppy
Yeah, LatAm and Africa too, where interest rates are high, but you still have a positive real yield on owning your property because it’s appreciating.
I think the other thing I’d say in the US and I think people kind of lost the narrative here. Guys are complaining that when their parents, like my parents were buying homes, it used to cost two or three years of salary and now it’s eight years or ten years of salary. And they say homes are really expensive.
Yes, homes are really expensive. But the guys got buying a McMansion today. It’s like a 4000 square foot home in the suburbs. If you look at what the people were buying in the 70s and 80s, it was like 1200 square feet, it was a two bedroom with a little kitchen. Now the kitchen has $200,000 of appliances in it. Like right. The reason these things got really expensive and, and unaffordable.
I think you’ll see some reversion back to a lower price point home with, with less amenities because you got to put people into homes as they were to put them. And so, big picture, I’m super bullish you know, you, you can’t go indefinitely with, you know, having a family with three kids and they’re in a two bedroom that’s 1200 sqft.
They need space, but that’s going to take until rates come back and as soon as rates peak out and start dropping or when inflation accelerates again, I’m going to be all over housing.
Tony
Great. Okay, that’s good. Thanks for that clarification. I think that’s really interesting, but in the near term you’re not necessarily bullish on housing in the near term, while rates are rising?
Kuppy
I think housing is going to do just fine because the tailwind is so strong, but at the same time, I think there’s better stuff to own. I’d much rather be in things that are pro inflation. I really just want to stick with energy. Uranium. I think those are trends that do well really in either market environment, but just because of the supply demand imbalances of the next year or two, I think they just work idiosyncratically no matter what. And I don’t know, I just think it’s easier trades.
Tony
Great. Okay, we did have some questions actually about emerging markets, so I just want to ask you first Kuppy, but then the rest of you guys, what emerging markets are you looking at and why?
Kuppy
I’m not really looking at any, so I can’t say. I will say I have a lot of friends that specialize in emerging markets, and they could show me a bunch of metrics that say emerging markets haven’t been this cheap in a very long time on cash flow, book value dividend. And there’s some reasons why maybe they deserve to be cheap. But those things come and go in terms of the why. But you buy cheap assets, things usually happen to you that are beneficial over time. I see Brent laughing, so explain.
Brent
Okay, to be clear, I’m not laughing at Kuppy’s answer. I tend to agree with, if his friends are telling him these things, I’m sure that’s true because they tell me the same thing. I just kind of laugh because I feel like every year for the last seven years, the trade of the year at the beginning of the year is to short the dollar and go long EM. It’s always the trade, it’s always the big idea, and to me it just never plays out. And I don’t think it’s going to play out right now.
I personally am not looking at any EM other than to stay away from it or perhaps to go on vacation to it. I don’t want anything to do with it from an investment perspective. Probably, not surprisingly, I don’t think the move in the dollar is over. And I think if we get a slowdown in the first half, which I think we will, I think that will play out in the Euro dollar market, and the emerging markets just as much, if not stronger than it will in the US markets. I don’t see an environment where EM outperforms the United States right now
Tony
In dollar terms.
Brent
In dollar terms. Yeah. Maybe in local terms. In local terms, that could easily happen. I mean, take a look at Turkey, right?
Tony
Right.
Brent
Turkey stock market has gone up two or 300% in the last 18 months, but they’ve got 80% inflation in local terms.
Tony
Right. So you have to.
Brent
So you have to yeah, right.
Tony
So Brent, can you talk us through you mentioned the dollar and you know, everyone always wants to know what your thoughts on the dollar? Can you walk us through what you’re looking for, say, over the next three to six months with the dollar?
Brent
Yeah, so, I mean, over the next three to six weeks or a couple of months, I don’t know, maybe it just goes sideways. But I think by, if not the end of Q1, beginning of Q1, kind of April-May time frame, I think the dollar is much higher than it is right now because I think that, you know, I sent out a tweet earlier today where because I, was kind of laughing.
I was talking to somebody and they said, well, rate hikes are over, so the dollar is done. And I was like, well the, the dollar can go up for reason other than rate hikes. And he was like, what are you talking about? And here’s the thing. From 2008 to 2019, the dollar went up 20% and there weren’t any rate hikes. I mean, there was a few in 2018. And in 2014, in 2014 and 2015, the DXY went up 25%. There were zero rate hikes. It’s because there was a global slowdown, right.
And when dollars aren’t circulating and the world needs dollars, there’s a dollar shortage. Supply, demand, it pushes the dollar higher. And so I feel like the move of the dollar in 2020, I’m sorry, in 2022 was all about rate hikes. Interest rate differentials, right. And maybe that is potentially over.
But the dollar can move for reasons other than interest rate differentials. And I think people have forgotten that if we go into a recession or if we go into a global slowdown, all that debt that is issued in dollar still needs to be serviced. And so I think perhaps the run in the dollar due to rate hike differentials is over. But I don’t think the run due to dollar shortage, due to a global slowdown and the need to service dollar debt is over.
Now, if I’m wrong, I don’t think that the Fed will come out and totally flip until they’re forced to do it. And the only reason they would be forced to do it is if the dollar was higher and all these asset prices were lower. So is it possible by the end of 2023 the dollar is lower? Sure. But I think at some point in 2023 we’re going to get another run in the dollar. And I think it’s probably in the kind of the March to April-May time frame.
Tony
Well, I think what people also forget is that the Fed has eight plus trillion dollars on its balance sheet, and if they start to sell it off in any sort of volume, that takes dollars out of circulation, right?
So that’s a big assumption because they’re shrinking it on a small basis now. But if they accelerated that, that would take dollars out of circulation. That’s bullish dollar as well, right.
Brent
Well, the other thing I want to make this point because I think this is a critical point. And I was speaking to, I went to a conference in October, and I’m not going to pick on this conference because it’s happened at every conference I’ve gone to. And I had so many people come up and me and say, what’s going to happen with the Fed? How’s the Fed going to get out of this? How’s the Fed going to get out of this? They’re trapped. Nobody has ever come up and asked me how the ECB is going to get out of it.
Nobody’s ever come up and asked me how the bank of Japan is going to get out of it. Nobody’s ever asked me how the Bank of England is going to get out of it. And the thing is, they’re in worse shape than we are. I hear you, and I understand all the problems associated with the dollar. Listen, it’s a horrible currency. It’s just better than the other three jokers.
Tony
Gold or CNY, Brent. Gold and CNY solves everything.
Brent
Exactly. So my views on the dollar are not just based on what the Fed is going to do. A lot of it’s based on what these other central banks are going to do. And I just don’t think their leaders are any smarter than ours.
Tony
Perfect.
Brent
And I think they’re trapped even more than we are. So anyway, not to go off on a whole tangent, but that’s why I don’t want to have anything to do with emerging markets.
Tony
That is not a tangent. In fact, that’s a segue to our Japan normalization discussion. Right.
So thanks for that. So we saw Kuruda come out, talk about changing policy a little bit, and markets reacted with a stronger yen and yada yada. Right.
So is this, do you see this as a real change? I see this tweet that you sent out earlier this week saying if you think happened to think today’s move in the BOJ is going to work out for Japan, it’s not.
So can you talk us through? Is it just preparing for the next BOJ chair to reduce risk if they change policy? Is it a real policy change? Is it going to work out? What do you see there?
Brent
I don’t really think it’s a policy change. And if you actually look at a lot of people, just see the headline and just react, and they don’t even think about what the headline means. And I think the market has got into a habit, and people in general have got into a habit of reading into it what they want to read into it. So I think very much the world wants Japan to get out of this, and they want the dollar to go down. And so anything that shows that another central bank is going to outperform the dollar, they ultimately want that to be true, whether it is or not.
If you read what they actually are doing, they’re actually increasing the amount of QE that they’re doing. So if you just read that sentence, you’d say, holy cow, the end is going to go even lower. Because not only did it have a horrible year this year, but now they’re going to increase QE. But at the same time, what they said is that we’re going to let the bond, the yield curve control, the band with which in yield curve control moves, we’re going to widen that.
So we could have interest rates in Japan go up to 50 basis points rather than 25 basis points. And so the market kind of interpreted that as, okay, they’re actually moving towards rate hikes. Now, they didn’t say they’re moving towards rate hikes. They didn’t do a rate hike. But everybody wants to believe that they’re going to raise rates.
But here’s the thing. Earlier this year, and I think it was March or April, interest rates in Japan, because of inflationary pressures, are now actually even hitting Japan. Long term rates in Japan moved up 25 basis points. And because the two to five to ten years prior to that, they were doing QE and negative rates. The banking system is chock full. And when I say the banking system, the banks, the hedge funds, the endowments, the all the institutions in Japan have all these zero yielding bonds, Japanese bonds on their banks, and because, and they’re long term bonds.
And so when yields even go up 25 basis points, the convexity makes the balance sheet of all these institutions go upside down. And so when interest rates went up 25 basis points in April, it caused all kinds of chaos in the Japanese banking system, and the market had to be halted, and the Bank of Japan had to come in and promise to do more yield curve control in order to keep it from blowing up.
And two days ago, or three days ago, whenever that announcement was, they made that announcement, the market took it as an interest rate hike. And guess what happened? They had to halt the Japanese bond market again. So I understand if they do raise rates, that would strengthen the yen.
But the problem is you cannot, and this is for every country, the US included, again, there’s a progression in how it’ll go, but you cannot save both the bond market and the currency market because they work at cross purposes. Whatever you do to save the bond market hurts the currency. Whatever you do to save the currency hurts the bond market. And every central bank in history has promised they won’t sacrifice the currency, and every central bank in history has ultimately sacrificed the currency.
And the reason they always choose the currency over the bond or the reason they always choose to sacrifice the currency over the bond market is two reasons. One, the currency affects the citizens more than the government, and the bond market affects the government more than citizens. So they’re going to bail themselves out before they bail the citizens out. And the second thing is, if the bond market blows up and the banking system blows up, there is no longer a distribution system for the government to raise money.
So they can’t let the bond market blow up because then they can’t get money anymore. And then if they can’t get money, they can’t operate. So this is a very long way of saying that I understand why the market moved the way it did. I think maybe in the short term it makes sense, but in the medium to long term, it doesn’t make any sense to me at all. Again, kind of watch what they do, not what they say. I think the yen is going much, much lower.
Tony
Okay, interesting. How long do you think it will take before markets call their bluff, is that?
Brent
Maybe a couple of months?
Tony
Really?
Brent
Again, I think we’re going to have a lot of problems by the end of Q1 all over the world, not just in Japan, not just in the US, not just in Europe, but everywhere. I think we’ve been slowly moving towards this crisis, and I think we’re almost there.
Kuppy
Brent, I think a lot of the move in the yen over the past couple of weeks is really just guys degrosing. That was the funding currency for all the risk assets, and risk assets went no bid, basically all year, and guys are finally getting redeemed from their hedge funds, and it’s year end redemptions. You got to pay it out. It’s got to unwind your yen to unwind your Tesla, which is also in free fall.
Brent
That plays into it as well. Yeah, I see your Tesla queue there. That’s a good timing.
Kuppy
I’ve had this, what, five years? Six years. It’s probably coming due today.
Tony
When is the Twitter Q month coming?
Kuppy
I don’t know.
Brent
Oh, they should have one of those, shouldn’t that’s a good idea. We should start selling those.
Kuppy
I’m a little conflicted here because I feel like Elon might be doing the right thing on the Twitter side, whereas Tesla is still like the evil empire. So I don’t know.
Tony
Okay, we’ll have another discussion about that at some point. Brent, you talk about things coming in Q1. Can you share a little bit of your thoughts there around markets, potential recession that might…
Brent
Well, yeah. I mean, in general, it’s kind of amazing. Now, let’s reverse ten days ago to the Fed meeting. At that time, the Fed had raised four and a half, almost 4% for the year, and markets were down, but they weren’t down that much. Now, since then, they’ve sold off another 5% or 10%. So now they’re getting close to the lows of September again.
But this is what I think. I think a lot of people are surprised that the market hasn’t crashed more than it has based on the four and a half percent or, or 4% rate hikes. And I think what sometimes people forget is that we may not even be feeling the effects of the very first rate hike yet, because oftentimes rate hikes take nine months to a year to actually.. The effects of the rate hike to show up in the economy and work their way through the economy.
Tony
Powell talked about that a lot in his last…
Brent
Well, no, exactly. And the first rate hike was nine months ago. It was in March. So it really wasn’t that long ago. Right. And now they’ve raised four times since then. So I just feel like by the time we get into February, March, that stuff is going to have started to show up, perhaps dramatically. And I think the Fed is going to continue raising until they just can’t raise anymore.
Now, whether they should or not, whether you believe Powell or not, again, that’s kind of a separate subject. I just think he’s going to do it because he wants to do it, and the last thing he wants is for inflation to reaccelerate on his watch. Right. And if he crashes the market, then everybody will be begging him to do QE and he can go do QE and be the hero. So I just kind of see that that’s how it’s playing. And I think that probably a lot of people agree with me on that. I don’t think that’s any kind of a crazy view right now. I think a lot of people think he’s going to hike until it crashes the economy, but I don’t see him slowing down until he has to.
Kuppy
Brent, I got a question. Lagarde has been super dovish for a very long time. Depending which country in the Eurozone you’re at teens, maybe even high teens inflation all of a sudden, last week, she just came out swinging.
Brent
She did.
Kuppy
And what do you think changed? Did someone just whisper in her ear? Did she look at a debt bad data point? Did a politician be like, hey, the peasants are upset about the price of bree? Like, what happened?
Brent
I think it’s a little bit of that latter. I’ve talked about this before. I think we all know that financial repression is the name of the game for governments. That’s how they get out of these big debt, these big debts that they, you know, they want to inflate it away over time. The problem, though, is what they would ultimately like to do is to get very steady rate of inflation at four or 5% a year for ten years right. And inflate away 50% of the debt. The problem, as we’ve kind of figured out and found out that it’s very hard to just get four for four or 5% inflation. It goes from 2% to 12% pretty quickly. They don’t have as much control as they think they do, right?
And the problem with four or 5% inflation, you can kind of get away with it because it’s annoying and it is frustrating, but it’s not totally ruining your life. But with 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 80% inflation, that starts to ruin the pledge life, as you mentioned. And that’s when they start to push back from a political perspective. And that’s what central banks and governments don’t want. They don’t want the populace revolting. But when you’re cold and you’re hungry, that’s when you revolt. Nobody revolts when they’re full and warm and have a great job and going on vacation. Why would you revolt in that environment? But when things are going against you and they start pushing back politically. And so I think that the pressures in Europe are a little bit just too much for them to not at least acknowledge it publicly. Now, whether they actually do anything and follow through on it, that will be interesting to see because, again, ultimately, I think they will save the currency rather than save the bond market, or I’m sorry, they will save the bond markets rather than save the currency. But I do think it’s a little bit of why Lagarde came out as strong as she did.
Kuppy
Do you think she follows through or?
Brent
No, she’ll try again. And it’s like Powell. Powell will keep trying it. Well, eventually the markets will push back on them and won’t let them, but I think she might try. But I think Europe is just screwed for lack of a better word.
Tony
So let me ask you guys and Europe, are we in a position where we have to approach what Japan is doing, where eventually the central bank will come in and buy up equities and they’ll buy their debt? And this is a cycle that just can’t stop? Is that what’s going to happen in the US and Europe as these central bankers are put in a quarter? And are we getting closer and closer to kind of D Day?
Brent
I think we probably are. Now, and I think there’s many people who believe that there’s nothing that central banks can do to squash inflation. I actually think that’s wrong. I think they could cause a depression which would have put a damper on inflation. Now, I don’t think that they can engineer a soft landing, but I think that’s what could happen at the end of kind of Q again, Q1, Q2. I think we could get some deflationary pressures coming through the markets due to the rate hikes that central banks have been trying and we’ll force them to U turn.
The biggest question I have, to be really honest, I’m not sure how this plays off, is whether or not we can get one more cycle of QE of risk on before they have to kind of reset the whole system. I could see a thing where we just have a couple maybe things just go down from here and a year from now they have to reset everything. But I could also see a scenario where we again have a bad first half of 2023. They reverse everything, we get another QE cycle that takes us into 2023 through the election five.
Yeah, exactly. And I don’t really know how that one plays out. I could see it kind of going either way. But ultimately to your point, Tony, I think the central banks will have to reverse.
It was funny. For several years, we were in a currency war where everybody was cutting rates to weaken their currency. Now, in the last couple of call a year, they’ve been raising rates to kind of strengthen their currency to try to fight against the inflationary pressure. So now the currency wars, who can outhawk the other one? It’s all going to end in tears.
Tony
Sadly. I think you’re right. Speaking of tears, Tracy.
Brent
No. Are you going to cry?
Tony
As we talk about difficulties
Tracy
every day?
Tony
…Recession and consumption and Kuppy started talking about oil at the start and oil demand. You posted a chart about looking at oil demand elasticity and household savings as central banks take different actions. Of course, that changes as stimulus have stopped. If it doesn’t come back on, there are changes to household savings, these sorts of things. So you posted a really interesting chart about household savings and can you talk us through a little bit of that and a little bit around oil demand elasticity?
Tracy
Yeah. What I think, I think there is a misconception that when there is a recession, that oil demand suddenly falls off a cliff. Right. Everybody has a very short memory and they look at COVID when we literally shut down the planet, but that’s not the reality. So if you look at past recessions in general, 2008, the most recent one, great financial crisis.
Now, we did see a dip in demand, but it was only about 2%, and it was only about 2% for two quarters. And then by the third quarter, demand increased over what it was before the great financial crisis. And so when I talk about the fact that everybody talks about savings, rates are going down, credit card rates are going up, nobody’s going to be able to afford oil, everything’s going to shut down, there’s a lot of fears running around. We’re going to have this global recession and nobody’s going to use oil anymore. And that’s kind of been the prevailing narrative. And we’ve seen this in open interest.
We’ve seen many funds sort of lose interest over oil. That’s been a great year for them. They shed their positions. But this prevailing narrative that we keep hearing in the media, “oh, it’s a global recession. Nobody’s going to use oil again.”
It’s just not a fact. We look at the data, we look at every recession. Recessionary pressures really have not taken much demand off the market. And every time that demand has been taken off the market within a very relatively short period of time, we’ve seen demand increase over that prior level. And so to use this kind of as a narrative, I think is not correct if you actually look at the data.
Tony
Okay, so we had this weird kind of almost recalibration of expectations with COVID where really everything came to a stop, right? So demand just cratered compared to, say, 2008, 2009 crisis. And so kind of the base effect of demand coming back has been really impressive, kind of year on year growth each time, right? And then we’ll continue to see that as China comes back.
But there are some real concerns for example. China’s population peaks out, peaked out in 2022 or ’23 or something like that, right? So their population is peaked out, and it’s all downside from here, right? Unless there’s real growth in their consumption. Europe’s pretty peaked out. Japan’s peaked out. The US hasn’t peaked out.
But we have some of those long term trends, and we have a recession. I’m just trying to play a little bit of devil’s advocate here. How much of an impact do you think those have on consumption, on the consumption dynamics, particularly with regard to savings and how, if people don’t have rising incomes and their saving rates decline just to make ends meet, which wasn’t necessarily the case in say, 2010 eleven. Can all of those things come together to really impact kind of the overall consumption trend or is that just not really a concern?
Tracy
I think there’s two separate things. If we’re talking about declining population rates, that’s sort of a long term view. We’re looking 20-50 years out, does that trend continue? And of course, at that point, you’re talking about global energy consumption decelerating, obviously.
Tony
And we’ll have nuclear powered flying cars right by then. So.
Tracy
Absolutely. But if we talk about, you know, shorter term things or near term things, things that we’re looking at, you know, over the next, say, you know, year to five years to ten years, I mean, there are still, regardless of a recession, we still are seeing year to year global consumption increasing. And in fact, we just had IEA, which I know is a WEF show, but we just had them completely revised their whole global oil growth demand system going back to 2014. They redid their entire numbers and added millions of barrels. And the media really likes to use that IEA data. They just repackage it and whatever. And they’ve been completely wrong at that point.
This goes back to when we had missing barrels and everybody was talking about that back in 2014. But the fact is that by any measure, global consumption is rising, right? Because you still have emerging markets that are trying to get out of the darkness. You look at countries like India, which they’ve had the strongest global demand increases so far this year. So there is always demand coming from somewhere, and the problem always goes back to supply.
In fact, we just don’t have the supply catching up with the demand. So even if we look at the Western world and even perhaps China years out, I mean, you still have to understand they’re still increasing demand, even though they’re absolutely even if their population is elderly and declining, their consumption energy wise is still on the uptrend.
So we still have these huge markets that are still on an uptrend. We’re going to see this in emerging markets. We’re going to see this in India, we’re going to see this in South America. We’re going to see this in Africa in particular, because BRI, suddenly they got a lot of money from China. They can build out this infrastructure, and they need, there is more demand there. So even though the west may be looking towards this green energy transition, we have to realize that that green energy transition also has not been working out. We just saw the biggest increase in coal demand in the EU in ten years this year.
Tony
Yes.
Tracy
Incredible that energy policy is not.
Tony
Reporters on sarcasm. Green energy transition. It’s on sarcasm.
Tracy
Really what we have to boil this all down to, long and short of I know I always talk in, like, broad picture, but really it all boils down to the data. What is the supply coming online? What is the demand going forward? And so far, demand outstrips supply. There is no way around that right now.
Tony
Okay. And it’s fairly inelastic it sounds like.
Tracy
It is fairly inelastic, even if you have, you know, again, look at the data. Anytime we’ve had a recession, demand is bounced back very quickly, and we’ve only seen a 1 to 2% pullback in demand. It’s not like COVID where everything crashed.
Tony
Okay, so we started and ended with crude. And I usually finish up guys with kind of, what do you see for the week ahead? But I’m going to change it up a little bit. As we go into 2023, with regard to markets, what keeps you up at night? What is that thing that you think about and you’re like, well, Account Odd sees this, and it’s obvious to me. What is that thing that keeps you up at night, Kuppy? I know you’ve got some amazing things in there. So what is that thing? And I know none of us see what you see.
Brent
You can’t say bourbon. That’s not a legitimate answer.
Kuppy
I think next year is the year that oil matters. We’ve lived in this world where oil has been sort of range bound, really for eight years. And people just got used to energy being cheap. I mean, we had a little bit of an energy scare in Europe, and I say “little” because that should have been the wake up call. And instead, I think you’re about to see the big one and you’re going to see energy as a percentage of GDP go to some crazy level like in the 1970s. And I think as a result, most of the Q sips on my screen are going to get smashed and everyone’s worried about JPowell. But in the end, JPowell is not the world central banker, oil is. And JPowell is going to chase oil higher on the screen for a while. He effectively has been chasing oil higher on the screen. And when oil rolled over from the summer onwards, that’s what cooled off the inflation. It’s not Fed funds rate that kind of helps. It’s really just oil. And as oil reaccelerates, JPowell is going to chase it higher on the screen and it’s going to get to a price where he’s going to have a dilemma.
He could either keep chasing oil higher or he could bail out the real economy with the rest of the economy. And I think he’s going to bail out the rest of the economy by cutting rates and sending oil parabolic. I think that’s how you get to my 300 number. And I don’t think people realize that oil at 90. Who cares? Oil got to 120 for a couple of weeks this summer. Who cares? What if oil is consistently in the high 100 and it just stays there? I think it just dramatically changes the arithmetic for every other QSIP on the screen. Absolutely. Aren’t plugging that in.
Tony
Okay, good. Thank you. Tracy, what keeps you up at night?
Tracy
I actually think that looking at 2024, I think that the metals markets are going to make a huge comeback. I’m not talking precious metals, I’m talking basin industrial metals only because I think that oil plays a part in that. If we have higher oil prices, we’re going to have higher metals prices. And because the west, in particular the EU, does not seem to want to be giving up on this green energy policy. We’re going to need a lot of metals, we’re going to need a lot of copper, we’re going to cobalt, nickel, whatever, if they want to continue down this path.
Tony
Sorry, you’re saying you need more industrial metals for batteries and other infrastructure for the green transition?
Tracy
More than we’re currently. In fact, we don’t even have the known reserves to get to the 2030 goals right now. If we were talking about copper. And certainly the mining industry has suffered the same problem as the oil industry has a lack of capex for the last seven years. And so we simply just don’t have that. So what I’m looking at, I think that oil is a big story and will continue to be a big story in 2021, 2022, but I think metals are going to start to come into play in 2023 and ’24. And what I’m worried about is we literally, again, no capex, and we don’t even have proven reserves anywhere. So that’s what I worry about. The metals based in industrial metals.
Tony
Okay, so so far it’s commodities keeping you guys up at night. Brent, wrap us up. What keeps you up?
Brent
It’s kind of interesting. I think that the underappreciated risk, even though the dollar made a hell of a run this year, is that we could have a funding market problem in the euro dollar market. And to be honest, it doesn’t keep me up at night because I’m kind of ready for it. I’m expecting it.
You know what keeps me up at night is these guys in Washington and Frankfurt and DC, and Tokyo and Beijing figuring out how to extend this game because they’re masters at keeping the plate spinning. And I’m always trying to figure out what are they going to do next to keep this whole house of cards going. And to me, that’s the wild card. I feel like I can kind of figure out markets. If markets are just left alone, I can kind of figure them out. The wild card is when the masters of the universe are the powers that be, however you want to describe them, come in and start messing with things, because that can change things, at least for a day or a week or a month, and sometimes that’s enough to wipe you out.
Tony
Yeah. Okay, guys, thank you so much. This has been really enlightening. I really appreciate the thought we put into this. Want to wish you all the best for the holidays and a fantastic 2023. Thank you so much.
Kuppy
Happy holidays, everybody.
Tracy
Happy holiday. Sure.