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The Dow – Exxon out, Salesforce in

Dow Jones index booted out energy giant ExxonMobil and replaced it with Salesforce. What does it mean to the world economy? Will Tesla be added to the S&P 500 next? The Phase One deal trade went smoothly between China and the US — will conflict like in tech be resolved? And with the recent optimism on COVID-19 vaccines, will transport and hospitality recover and how soon? Our CEO and founder Tony Nash joins the BFM 89.9 team in Malaysia to share his outlooks on these issues and more on the global economy.

 

This podcast first appeared and originally published at https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/the-dow-exxon-out-salesforce-in on August 26, 2020.

 

BFM Description

 

Phase 1 US-China trade discussions, Salesforce displaces Exxon in the Dow Jones, Tesla’s fundamentals, and is it time to buy airlines? Tony also gets into his expectations from the Federal Reserve out of Jackson Hole this week.

 

Produced by: Mike Gong

 

Presented by: Roshan Kanesan, Noelle Lim

 

Show Notes

 

Noelle: The S&P 500 and the NASDAQ notched fresh highs. Facebook rallied after unveiling a series of tools designed to expand shopping on its social media platforms.

 

Roshan: The S&P was up 4%, The Nasdaq was up 0.8%. Only the Dow was down. It was down 0.2% and that’s the first day decline for the first time in four days. We take a look at Facebook was up a 3.5% actually overnight in Asia. The Nikkei was up 1.4%, Shanghai was down 0.4%,. Hong Kong was 1.3% and Singapore was up 0.8%. Malaysia, on the other hand, closed down 0.9% yesterday. So let’s take a look at how it open up later today.

 

But right now, we’re taking a look at global markets with Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, thanks for taking the time to speak with us this morning. Discussions between the U.S. and China on their Phase One Deal, a trade deal went smoothly even as other tensions cement in the background. Is this a sign that other disputes, such as the tech conflict, can be worked out between the two nations?

 

Tony: I’m not necessarily sure it means the tech conflict can be worked out. I think it’s possible, but I think it’s more of a sign of the floods that happened in China and the ag supply needs that China has as a result of flooded crop land in China over the summer. There’s been something like $21 billion of economic damage done as a result of the floods. If you look at China’s commitments for US corn, soybeans, soy was up last week. They’re all up more than 100% on last year.

 

Noelle: Looking at the markets, Dow Jones Industrial Average, Exxon was booted out. Is this the beginning of the end for big oil majors or will energy companies catch a second wind as demand recovers?

 

Tony: I live in the town where ExxonMobil is headquartered, and I just don’t see an environment where ExxonMobil necessarily comes back into things like the Dow. Crude oil for the rest of the year, we see it, gradually grinding higher. In 2021, we see some supply issues which would push prices higher. But we’re not necessarily seeing equities like ExxonMobil all that appealing. ExxonMobil’s equity performance over the last four or five years has been terrible. You can’t really blame the Dow and the S&P for booting them out.

 

Roshan: Tony, let’s take a look at the whole replaced Exxon on the Dow Jones — Salesforce. Their stock rose about 3.5% overnight. Now, what’s your outlook on Salesforce?

 

Tony: Salesforce is a very interesting company. There are some client concerns about cost and kind of the necessity of sticking with Salesforce for so many activities. But I think as a shareholder, it’s positive. And the capability that Salesforce has is very good. So it seems like an appropriate add to the index.

 

Noelle: Do you think Tesla is likely to be added to the S&P 500?

 

Tony: It’s possible. I was just looking at the the PE ratio for Tesla. It’s over a thousand. It’s 1,047. You’re typically looking at maybe 15 to 20 or something like that, maybe expanding a bit more. It’s 1,047. Is it possible that Tesla started? Yes, but I think the volatility risk there is quite high. Just since August 11th, Tesla has gained about $700 per share. I think it’s great when it rises. Will it fall? I don’t know. I’m not necessarily calling that. But the volatility risk there is quite high for these indexes that like to be pretty stable industrial gauges.

 

Roshan: I think with those gains, no one wants to bet against Tesla at this point and or even chart the stock at this point. That’s why we’re talking about transport. This sort of airline shares seem to be trending upwards on the last few days based on news positive news around COVID-19 vaccines and treatments. But is it too early to be bullish in the transport sector?

 

Tony: It depends on how bullish you are. I see people saying that within four to six to eight months, there’s an expectation that things will be closer to normal. And I think part of the bullishness is people wanting to get in. There is not necessarily belief that monetary policy like central banks will reel in and will reduce their balance sheet. With this much money in the system and potentially more, it’s possible that, airlines might be something interesting as we get closer to normalization. Assuming that happens, I’m positive about that. Business in the States is slowly normalizing. Kids are slowly going back to school. The normal school year starts about this time. In some states like where I live, kids are going back to physical school, which is kind of a big change from the last six months. So we’re slowly starting to see normalization. And I’m optimistic about things like travel and hospitality.

 

Noelle: All eyes will probably be on what the Fed will cover on Thursday. What do you expect to be in their statements?

 

Tony: I hate to say this because everyone says that we’re kind of in uncharted territory. Right? It’s very cliche by now, but we are in danger of the US economy slowing. We’ve seen some of the initial excitement we saw in July and early August start to slow with jobs. The jobs numbers last week were over a million again. And so I think the Fed is worried because employment is one of their mandates.

 

We may see additional aggressive intervention by the Fed to make sure that the economy continues to come back. I think they have to be careful because it is an election year and they don’t want to be seen as being political. But I think the economic reality is that they have to. I think both the Fed and the Treasury, there are programs in the States like the Paycheck Protection Program, which helps small businesses get through the worst days of kind of COVID and that’s run out. And I think a lot of small businesses are really in trouble now because we haven’t seen things normalized. I think the Fed will come back with a bit more. I think the Treasury, once Congress is back in session, Treasury will come back with a bit more as well, support for individuals and for small businesses.

 

Roshan: All right, Tony, thank you so much for your time this morning. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his view on the inclusion of a Salesforce into the Dow Jones, among other things. Interesting times. I mean, Exxon, I think the Dow Jones is a price weighted index. So it does work differently from the S&P 500. But it is a milestone, right? It is. It is something to note the fact that Salesforce also is a very enterprise driven solution.

 

So that’s an interesting addition there. But Tesla. Tesla has been a very interesting stock to watch. I think it was what I was listening to a podcast yesterday about how even the shorts that still used to be a favorite among short sellers. And they’ve just I mean, if you are short seller of Tesla earlier this year, you would be deeply, deeply in the red at this point.

 

Noelle: Yeah. So I think that a lot of questions are whether it should be included in the S&P 500. Granted, the value of his stock has risen really significantly. I think questions about the quality of earnings, whether they can be sustained, you know, if the share price to frothy. So these are some questions that the committee will still need to confront. And I guess like what you know, what Tony’s saying at S&P 500 Committee, they will look for stability, right? They wouldn’t want to keep kicking out the stock in and out. So, yeah. So maybe, OK, set up. The Tesla may not be added.

 

Roshan: And of course, we’re all paying attention to what’s going to happen in Jackson Hole this weekend on the virtual Jackson Hole.

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Podcasts

Dollar stays soft till year end

Tony Nash joins BFM 89.9 The Business Station for another discussion on the global markets — particularly the growing US market amidst the weakening dollar. Why is that? Is it about the vaccine optimisim, the 2020 US election, or the pending unemployment benefits? What about gold’s fast value upgrade — will this continue or is it too vulnerable to handle right now? And Euro is performing impressively against the dollar — should investors dive right in or still be cautious?

 

This podcast first appeared and originally published at https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/dollar-stays-soft-till-year-end on August 6, 2020.

 

BFM Description

Tony Nash, CEO Of Complete Intelligence tells us why markets in US are still hitting new highs while giving us his views on the direction of the US dollar and whether it makes a difference who sits in the White House this November.

 

Produced by: Mike Gong

 

Presented by: Khoo Hsu Chuang, Wong Shou Ning

 

Show Notes

 

BFM: For more insights into global markets, we speak to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. U.S. markets continue to break records. Now, how much of that is driven by vaccine optimism and a potential deal for unemployment benefits?

 

TN: I think there is a deal for unemployment benefits and it will continue to drive consumption. The disposable income that people had — that 600 extra dollars a week — really helped the consumer side of the economy stay afloat for the things that were open.

 

There is an expectation that if something similar passes, that it will help consumption in Q3. However, we see things like manufacturing employment are coming back quite strongly despite the ADP number that was out today. Services is lagging a bit largely because of restaurants and shops and etc., not being open so much. But it is on the expectation of a weakening dollar as well with both equity markets and commodities.

 

BFM: The same euphoria is happening to gold and it’s now something like 2,040 USD an ounce, one of the highest, if not the highest it’s ever been. Is it not vulnerable to a price correction, though?

 

TN: We don’t think it would be by much for some time because a weakening dollar is more reliant on central banks’ monetary policy. It’s likely that commodities will continue to rally. And the dollar has a lot of dedicated bulls. There may be a couple of hiccups before the end of the year, but we don’t see a whole lot slowing it down. Having said that, we don’t see a lot more headway to the upside. There’s some, but we don’t see like another 20 percent gain or something like that. It’s possible, but that’s not within our baseline expectation.

 

BFM: There’s even talk of three thousand dollars an ounce. You don’t think that’s going to happen, obviously?

 

TN: I think that’s possible. But not likely.

 

BFM: Meanwhile, the Euro has strengthened against the US dollar now. So is this, again, the weakening dollar rather than Euro strength? And what does this mean now for investors? Should they be more bullish on the Eurozone?

 

TN: A number of investors are bullish on the Eurozone because many of the countries in Europe are fully back to normal and and they’re doing quite well. So there is optimism about European companies, but it is also related to the weakening dollar. I think one of the other considerations around dollar weakness, whether it’s gold or euro or other things, is the uncertainty around the U.S. election.

 

I think priced into the dollar weakness is the possibility of a Biden win. And there is not a lot of excitement around a Biden economy. If there is clarity of a Trump win, Trump has done some interesting things in the economy and pulling back regulations and other things, it’s possible there will be more dollar strength.

 

BFM: Oil has been trading in a very tight range. API and US crude data showing a fall in inventories. Why isn’t prices rising more then?

 

TN: It’s demand. Yes, the supplies are falling, but the demand, it came back, but it is not continuing to rise as quickly as they had when they first started to open up. And until we start seeing things like flights happening again, business travel, personal travel, happening again in a big way, we’re not really going to see things like jet fuel consumption come back. That’s really where a lot of the growth is.

 

A lot of Americans are driving more in cars because things like mass transit… So I’m in suburban Houston, Texas. Right next to my office is a very large car park for commuters into the city. That car park has been closed since February. So the people who want to drive into the city will have to drive their own cars. There really isn’t a mass transit option. So individual consumption has risen because people who want to go to work have to drive themselves. But we don’t have things like jet fuel consumption that have come back anywhere close to where they were in January.

 

BFM: I want to come back to the US dollar. What’s your view on it? You expect it to continue to weaken? And if so, how has that changed your strategic asset allocation?

 

TN: Well, we really just turned. Through July, we expected the dollar to start to rally in October, November. But just in our forecast on Monday and we’re expecting a weakening dollar to the end of the year. So that market has evolved a bit where it’s tough for that asset to come back in value. And part of that is the veracity of the euro strength. We are a bit worried about the dollar value. Again, if we see a Trump win, which is it likely now? I don’t think we really know that. But if we do, we do expect that we’ll see some dollar strength to come back a bit earlier. If it’s a Biden win, we expect the dollar to remain weak, as you know, monetary policy and central bank and QE infinity, those sorts of things, will potentially be part of the economic plan.

 

So we don’t expect a strong dollar rally this year. It would be Q1 before we start to see some real strength in the dollar. We’re not expecting the dollar DXY, for example, to go into the mid 80s or anything like that. But we do expect it to remain weak over the next several months.

 

BFM: Friday sees US non-farm payrolls come out. Are you expecting the numbers to reflect this softening job market?

 

TN: You don’t necessarily see the job market softening. There are a couple of dynamics. As unemployment benefits dry up, people are going to have to start going back to work. So they probably won’t be as rich as they have been for the last few months. So people are going to have to get out and they’re going to have to work a bit more.

 

And we have also seen manufacturing come back pretty strongly. So, for example, one of our clients is an auto parts manufacturer in Michigan in the US. As auto makers pivoted to make ventilators, the auto parts business dried up. So these guys went from 400 workers to like 15 workers, like a dramatic cutback. Over the last three months, as of August, they’ll be back to 100 percent of their workforce working. So they’ve seen literally of the in their workforce utilization.

 

And we’ve spoken to a number of people who that’s what they’re seeing, and this is particularly on the manufacturing side, where they cut back dramatically in March, April, May. And since then, they’ve really started to build up pretty rapidly, given the extent of the cuts that they had to make in Q2.

 

BFM: All right. Thank you for your time. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, highlighting about the U.S. dollar rate. He expects it to remain soft until maybe when you’re recovering in the first quarter. And of course, that is also dependent on who might actually win or might be in the White House come November.

 

So let me bring this to the walking. And according to the Financial Times, Joe Biden is, you know, head and shoulders above Donald Trump in terms of the polls, which means in three months time Mr. Orangeman will be out of the White House. No more orange in the White House.

 

Yeah, but did you see those tweets that Donald Trump is trying to do to delay the elections?

 

Well, he has been questioning whether they are going to be reliable in the first place, right?

 

Yes. Well, we’ll be watching the space. I mean, it’s less than 100 days to the US presidential elections is going to be interesting times. I just wonder, you know, in the meantime, who’s really managing the United States? Because unfortunately, the COVID-19 cases just seem to get increasingly worse. But let’s hope they actually saw unemployment benefits deal quickly because otherwise the economy will really pay the price for it.

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Podcasts

Gold & Silver, Nature’s Bitcoin

Tony Nash joins BFM Malaysia for another look at the global markets, particularly discussing the “nature’s bitcoin,” which are gold and silver, the US Dollar outlook, if Tesla is a good buy right now, Microsoft, and others.

 

Listen to this podcast at https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/gold-silver-natures-bitcoin

 

BFM Description

 

Tesla and Microsoft results were released last night but which company actually met expectations upon a closer look?

 

Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence helps us dissect the numbers while weighing in on the sharp rise on gold and silver’s which is defying the historical correlation between asset classes.

 

Produced by: Mike Gong
Presented by: Khoo Hsu Chuang, Wong Shou Ning

 

Show Notes

 

BFM: For more thoughts on what’s going on with markets, we speak to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Now, markets had a choppy day last night, but still closing in the green on optimism of this spending bill and, of course, the vaccine. Now, are investors choosing to ignore the realities of what is clearly a weak, broader economy at their peril?

 

TN: Well, no. I think generally they’re trying to figure out how fast things will come back and when we look at some of the earnings, like Microsoft, they’re really, really good. And when we look at some things, like the rate at which people are coming back, say on the roads and other things, it’s looking positive. So have things got a little bit ahead of themselves? It’s possible, but I don’t necessarily think people are kind of ignoring the issues around COVID and other items.

 

BFM: Just to stay on that point a little bit, Tony. How much money do you think really will be put into the system as a result of this new spending bill? More importantly, Trump talked up, and I think allocated about two billion dollars to Pfizer for the COVID vaccine. Those two elements there, what kind of numbers in quantums can you throw into the mix here, Tony?

 

TN: I think you’re you’re looking at least at trillions. I don’t think it’ll be as large as the initial spending. I think it’ll be a bit of a tapering of the initial spending. But with the magnitude of spending to join with Pfizer and other vaccine manufacturers, they just want to be able to put a cap on this and say, “okay, as of a certain date, right now, it’s expected to be December. We’ll have a vaccine that‘ll put a limit on the risk and we can kind of set all of this stuff aside.”

 

BFM: And Tony, talking about the two bit results that came out last night. So there was Microsoft, which kind of mistreat, but Tesla, which beat. Are you a believer on Buford? Or do you actually have a preference?

 

TN: Tesla announced they’re building a factory in Texas, which is where I sit. So I’m very excited about it. But on a serious note, Tesla’s positive EPS report happened largely because they sold 428 million dollars of regulatory credits. So they’re not positive because of car sales. They’re positive because of selling regulatory credits. Investors have to look at that reality. Now, the other consideration for Tesla is it’s their fourth consecutive gap profit. So they’re now eligible for S&P 500 including. That may be a factor to pull some demand along for the stock if they are, in fact, put into the S&P 500.

 

BFM: For the benefit of the Tesla day traders. I think that’s nearly half a million of them on Robinhood. Tesla is now worth nearly 300 billion dollars, more than the entire European and American car sectors. Did you think this is a collapse waiting to happen, or do you think this going to be more upside?

 

TN: Do you know what? It’s yes. The problem with that kind of statement is it’s like there’s not even close to trading on fundamentals at Tesla. So the real question is, how excited will people get and when will that taper off? The real problem is wondering how long that excitement will be there because it’s fully sentiment. I mean, anybody who thinks Tesla trades on fundamentals. It’s really what are the expectations for next quarter’s earnings? That’s what Tesla’s trading on now.

 

Plus, a lot of excitement and a lot of Robin hood fiz. It really is sentiment based. When we see that sentiment subside, I think that’s when, I don’t think we can continue north of a three, four, 500 billion dollar valuation for a company like Tesla. As cool as it is, I think it’s very hard to continue with it.

 

BFM: And Tony, talking about things that have gone up, it’s gold and silver. Both precious metals have seen sharp rises in price levels. So what’s the reason behind the focus on these commodities? And the question, again, is this sustainable?

 

TN: Is it sustainable? Gold and silver are kind of nature’s cryptocurrency, right? They really are where sentiment goes if people are skeptical about the dollar or skeptical about risk. We saw the VIX down like two percent today. So we saw gold and silver kind of about even by end of the day. When risk is going down, gold and silver typically aren’t doing great. The dollar will stay weak for the next couple of months. But we do see bit of a dollar strength coming back later in the year. Those aren’t perfectly inverse relationships. But there really is question around what will the Fed do? If the Fed continues to expand the money supply, there is an expectation that more people will flock to gold and silver. I’m just not quite seeing that much left. But it’s possible that there is.

 

BFM: I’m not sure whether your software looks at this necessarily, but it shows for silver that the technical resistance is at 21 dollars an ounce and now it’s gone past that 22 and 3 quarters. They’re talking about twenty five dollars an ounce though. Would you agree with that prognosis?

 

TN: Yeah, we see serious resistance. I mean it’s possible. So we’ll hit 25, but we don’t necessarily see the incentive there for silver to continue to rise. We do see strong resistance at these levels. And it’s, you know, from our perspective, it’s fairly risky looking at those at the moment.

 

BFM: And Tony going back to the U.S. dollar, right? I mean, we are seeing weakness now. But you say you have expectations of it recovering towards the end of the year. What is that premise on, though?

 

TN: When the Fed and the Treasury slow down, when we start to see stability around COVID. Things like ICU beds in East Texas, there’s so much more availability. That’s like 20 percent more availability this week than there were last week. When we start to see more stability around what’s actually causing the risk in markets and there’s less of a need for the Fed and the Treasury to intervene, then we see stability in money supply.

 

And as the market recovers, we start to see or we would expect to see more velocity of the U.S. dollars. That’s kind of how quickly do people spend it, right? If we see stability in the money supply and more velocity in American spending, then that could be dollar strength. If there’s instability in, say, emerging markets or Europe or something like that, if the finance ministers could ever get it together in Europe, we’d see more strength in the Euro.

 

But there’s disharmony there and there are questions in some emerging markets. So if we see stability and velocity rise in the U.S., then we could see more investment come from overseas into the U.S., which would accelerate Dollars. We don’t necessarily expect strong dollar strength for a turn before the end of the year, but we do expect moderate dollar strength to come in before the end of the year.

 

BFM: All right. Thank you for your time, Tony. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, saying that Tesla looks like something very scary at this moment, right? It looks like the stock, at six hundred times P is extremely, I would say quite expensive. I mean, you would never think that a company that isn’t it only makes less than thousand cars could be valued at six hundred times.

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Podcasts

Claims, Caution, and China

Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence speaks with BFM 89.9 about the US market rebound, what to expect in the third quarter of 2020, jobless claims and US unemployment, and Hong Kong amid the US-China cold war or trade war.

 

BFM Notes

It’s been an eventful weekend in politics, and all eyes are on whether markets will reflect the renewed uncertainty. We reached out to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, to help us break down Federal Reserve chairman Jerome Powell’s comments before the US Senate Banking Committee, data expectations, and what the potential impact of Hong Kong losing its special status might be on emerging market currencies.

 

Produced by: Michael Gong, Roshan Kanesan

Presented by: Noelle Lim, Roshan Kanesan, Lyn Mak

 

Listen to the BFM Podcast here.

 

 

Show Notes

 

BFM: Thanks for joining us, Tony. So now, Jerome Powells made some comments before the Senate Banking Committee pointing towards a cautious rebound in the US economy. But nevertheless, U.S. markets closed in the green on the back of some positive housing data. So could you help shed some light on what’s happening here?

 

TN: Sure. We had the positive housing data. We had a broad tech rally. We also had Boeing like 14 percent today on a test flight on the 737 Max. So it was simply a test flight and it was a successful test flight and Boeing rallied 14 percent. It’s a major component and it has an impact on broad market activity. So there are some good things happening, but certainly low expectations environment.

 

BFM: Do you expect end of quarter rebalancing by funds, would that costs significant market volatility? I mean, could you just give us some thoughts about this?

 

TN: As we’ve said before, we expect volatility to continue through probably mid-August. So we will see some rebalancing and we will see as these investors figure out what the right value is for the assets they’re invested in. So we’ll see some change. We’ll see a lot of people kind of take it in Q2. And Q3 is a brand new quarter, so they’ll wipe the slate clean. We’ve seen a lot of companies dump everything but the kitchen sink into the Q2 earnings. Well, but we expect them to. And so Q3 will be hopefully a whole new world. And and we’ll be approaching something more positive by then.

 

BFM: Right. And Tony, when we look at the every week, we’ve been paying very close attention to the jobless claims numbers, right? What are your expectations of the US Weekly jobless claims numbers this week and June Non-Farm payroll data that’s expected on Thursday or Friday overtime?

 

TN: Well, we saw a huge jump in non-farm payrolls in May of 2.5 million, which was pretty massive. Also, the unemployment rate improved from almost 20 percent to like 13 percent. So, we expect things to improve gradually. We don’t expect the two million, although I hope we do, but we don’t expect that magnitude. But we do expect jobs to continue to accumulate as companies gradually come back. So the initial wave of companies opening up in the US produced a lot of new jobs. But now we’re starting to see that continue, but not necessarily at the same magnitude. But again, if we see 2.5 million or more, that will be a delight, everyone.

 

BFM: So now, Tony, fluctuating crude prices and as well as bankruptcies like Chesapeake Energy make oil stocks seem like a bit of a risky proposition. Shouldn’t investors still be considering energy companies as part of their portfolio?

 

TN: Well, I think you have to do with caution. So we look at things like crude oil inventories in the US reached an all time high of something like 540 million barrels about a week and a half two weeks ago. So there’s plenty in storage. I think if you’re investing in energy companies, whether they’re the developers option companies or service providers or whatever, I think you just have to go in with your eyes open to know that the growth there and the draw down in inventories is not likely to be a quick one.

 

TN: So, again, it’s just you have to understand your own risk profile. You have to understand your own tolerance and then go in. I mean, when you look at something like Chesapeake, that was, it happened. And I don’t think it was a complete surprise. But you also look at BP. They sold off their chemical business to Eneos over the weekend. And so some of these companies are hiving off other businesses so they can focus on their core business.

 

BFM: So, now you know, the latest piece of news where US is going to revoke Hong Kong’s special status. So what do you make of this piece of news in the larger picture of the trade war, the Cold War between China and US?

 

TN: I think it puts Hong Kong… It’s another piece in the puzzle to put Hong Kong in a light that it doesn’t really want to be put in, which is one country, one system. Hong Kong has for the last 20, 30 years, been the special place where you can access China without all the baggage. But what we’ve seen with the security like coming in is if you’re in Hong Kong, you’re also accepting the China baggage, which means you have to self-censor your comments, which means you have to be really careful about everything you do and say. And if you’re an investor, that’s a pretty difficult place to be. And so I think, the announcements in the State Department of not selling this technically sensitive equipment there, it was inevitable.

 

I don’t necessarily think it’s a surprise. I think from the Chinese side, it may have been a surprise. But I think they were kind of deluding themselves if they didn’t expect it. So there is accountability for China’s actions and it’s been as they’ve moved into Hong Kong, there have to have been ramifications and were seeing those, and there will be more. And China will have to understand that if they want the benefits of open, say investment markets, they’re going to have to limit their desire to control a number of aspects around business.

 

BFM: Thank you very much for speaking with us this morning, Tony. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his insight into global markets.

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Podcasts

Message to Fed: More sugar please!

Tony joins BFM for another discussion on the US markets, this time, sending a message to Fed on what needs to be done. What he thinks will Powell do next and why is the Fed buying a lot of ETFs. Plus, a side topic on oil as Saudi called for a larger production cut.

 

Produced by: Michael Gong

 

Presented by: Roshan Kanesan, Noelle Lim, Khoo Hsu Chuang

 

This podcast is originally published by BFM 89.9: The Business Station.

 

 

Podcast Notes

 

BFM: The Fed chair, Jerome Powell, painted a rather negative view of the economy unless fiscal and monetary policymakers rise to the challenge. But what’s left in the toolbox, though?

 

TN: There’s quite a lot left, actually. We’ve seen a few trillion dollars spent. What we need to make sure is that that money actually gets out to businesses. So offering lower rates, nobody is really in a mood to borrow unless it’s forgivable. With the mandatory closing of a lot of small and mid-sized businesses, it’s really putting their revenue models in peril. Actually helping those businesses with cash to substitute for revenue, since this was a government shutdown, is really all they can do. But I think the next path is looking to medium-term spending programs like infrastructure. A number of these things that can go from direct cash payments to earned cash so that we can have a more viable economy again.

 

BFM: Could you elaborate more on some of the fiscal measures that you’re talking about?

 

TN: For small and mid-sized businesses, we’ve had things like the PPP, the Paycheck Protection Program. What that does is it gives about two and a half months’ worth of expenses to companies so that they can retain their staff and pay for their rent during the downtime. But what’s happened is not a lot of companies have been approved. Of those who’ve been approved, not all have gotten their money, a number of them are still waiting.

 

For small companies, they run on cash flow. They don’t have three to six months of cash sitting in the bank normally. So while they wait, they’re going bankrupt. They’re having to fire people. At the same time, we’re starting to see more and more large companies announce layoffs over the past two weeks. And so we’ve seen the devastation of a lot of small and mid-sized companies in the US. We’re starting to see that bleed into large corporate layoffs.

 

Those large companies want to see the expenses associated with those layoffs put into Q2. As we go through Q2, we’re expected to see more and more corporate layoffs, so that all those companies can pack them into their earnings reports for Q2.

 

BFM: The correction of the last couple of days, the American share market has been a bit of a test, up 30% since the March lows. A lot of billionaire investors like Stan Druckenmiller and Appaloosa management’s David Tepper say that stocks have been the most overvalued for a number of decades. What does that do for your thinking by way of your portfolio? Are you taking some money off the table? Are you getting more cautious? What are you going to do?

 

TN: The only thing we can really guarantee right now is volatility. And what is happening is they’re trying to find a new pricing level. Until we’ve found that new pricing level, really anything can happen.

 

What we’re entering right now is a phase where people are realizing that states may stay closed longer than many expected. I actually think you’re going to get a lot of push back from citizens in the U.S. Los Angeles just announced they are going to stay closed for three more months. You’re going to see a lot of unrest there. People are really pushing back because their hopes and dreams of decades of these small and mid-sized businesses are just being devastated as local officials make these decisions. I feel in the next few weeks, we’re going to see more and more people pushing back on those orders because they need to get back to work. They’ve got to run their companies. They’ve got to make some money.

 

BFM: That’s right. But this is an ongoing chasm between what’s happening on Wall Street, which is essentially a rally and Main Street, which is dying. People are divided over whether the policy response will be to get into the Fed buying equity market instruments on top of the junk ETFs and all the backstopping of the bond market. What’s your stance and what Jerome Powell is going to do next?

 

TN: They can do that. It’s certainly within their remit to lend money. The ETFs are kind of an indirect way to lend money. It’s radical, but it’s not beyond their capability. Where it looks like the Fed is going is with yield curve control. That means they’re likely to target a rate for the 10-year Treasury, and then they will spend almost unlimited cash to make sure that the rates stay there.

 

If the Treasury yield curve rises too much and people stop taking out long-term loans for infrastructure projects or for other things, if that rises too much, the Fed will push that yield curve down, let’s say, to a half percent rate so that people can borrow over long terms for cheaper. That’s the way for the Fed to encourage investing. That’s not a direct government fiscal policy, but it’s a way to get the private sector to spend cash. This is really for the larger, private sector companies. It’s a signal to me that the federal government itself is preparing itself to spend a lot more money in terms of fiscal policy, and also encourage the private sector to spend a lot more money on these long-term projects.

 

BFM: That is a theoretical concept, which hasn’t proved right in the last 10 years, because what corporations have done is that instead use that easy money to buy back shares and to return dividends to shareholders, not to invest for the long term. So that’s to be the problem.

 

TN: Well, either way, shareholders win, right? Either way, cash is spent or they get it in their return. U.S. equity markets are broadly held among most working Americans. So on some level, if that is done through share buybacks, it will help a broad base of shareholders through those equity prices. Share buybacks sound morally questionable, but either way that money is spent, it helps the broad economy.

 

BFM: So the U.S. Fed is now buying junk bonds, why ETF for the first time. Why these instruments? What’s the significance of it?

 

TN: They can’t invest directly in equities. Some of this stuff is a signal that they want to do more in debt markets. They’re too big to help out small companies. They’ve put together this main street lending program as a way to lend to, quote, unquote, small companies. But those small companies are actually pretty big. Most of the corporate entities in the U.S. are actually pretty small. The Fed is trying to alleviate the market of certain risk assets. I believe and hope that banks will lend to small and medium-sized companies. They’re trying to take the risk out of the market and off the balance sheets of banks so that those banks will invest more directly in actual operating companies that need the money and not necessarily the risky, junk bond companies.

 

BFM: A little bit on oil. Saudi Arabia has called for larger production cuts. Will the whole OPEC plus community back them? Should we expect some pushback? And what does this look like for oil prices?

 

TN: I don’t think you’re going to get a lot of pushback. We have about three months of crude supply overhang right now. Given that economies are locked down, there’s really no way to burn that off. So the only way to get prices back up to a sustainable level is really to cut off supply. Until the largest producers really slow down their production, and we can burn off some of that supply overhang, we’re not going to see prices rise much.

 

Demand’s not necessarily coming about quickly. It’s going to be gradual. As demand gradually accelerates and supply declines gradually, hopefully, we’ll meet in the middle somewhere and get a price that’s a little bit more livable for oil producers globally.

 

 

Categories
Podcasts

In America, the economy sinks but markets surge. What gives?

 

BFM 89.9: The Business Station speaks with CEO and founder of Complete Intelligence, Tony Nash, to explain why the markets have surged and earnings seem resilient despite the US GDP falling to negative 4.8 percent.

 

Produced by: Michael Gong

Presented by: Noelle Lim, Khoo Hsu Chuang

 

Listen to the podcast, originally published in BFM 89.9.

 

 

Podcast Notes

 

BFM: We are talking to Tony Nash, the chief executive of Complete Intelligence on the American markets. Tony, thank you for talking to us. American GDP shrank by 4.8% overnight, the steepest fall since the last recession. What did you think of these numbers in terms of what you expected prior?

 

TN: It was a bit worse than many people thought. But it wasn’t as bad as it could have been. That was the thought that many people had, and markets tend to be looking forward. So looking at Q2, we now have big states like Texas and Florida and others that have started to open up fairly aggressively. So markets themselves are looking forward. And markets are looking pretty favorably on some of the opening up lines.

 

BFM: Fed Chair Jerome Powell is calling for more action from the government. What are the options and what do you hope to see?

 

TN: Well, there are options for more fiscal stimulus. The federal government could do things like an infrastructure plan. Two years ago, in his State of the Union address, the President talked about a $1.5 trillion infrastructure plan for the U.S. They could do something like that. The individual states, which really imposed a lot of these restrictions, they really haven’t had to pay up much aside from kind of the standard unemployment benefits.

 

So the states could pony up a bit more cash than they have. They’ve really been relying on the federal government to pay for this whole thing. And they haven’t really had any accountability for the decisions that they’ve made. So I think the states really need to pay up a bit in terms of fiscal stimulus.

 

BFM: The Fed has backstopped the corporate bond market in the fixed income market for some time. Obviously, you can see that exemplified in the six and a bit trillion dollars of debt on the balance sheet. Do you think they’ll come a time when the Fed backstops the equity market as well?

 

TN: I don’t know. There’s been talk about that, they’ve certainly done that in Japan and the BOJ owns a lot of the ETFs in Japan. I don’t necessarily see that happening in the U.S. because it’s a door that once you open, it’s very, very difficult to close.

 

It’s the same question with negative interest rates. And so these are activities that once you start, they tend to be very, very hard to stop. And most of the market observers don’t really want that to happen.

 

 

BFM: Q1 GDP came in minus 4.8 percent. But the consensus estimate of economist on Bloomberg reckoned there’s going to be a minus 26 percent drop in Q2. And even more astonishingly, I think a nine percent improvement in Q3. Do those two numbers strike you as a little bit extreme?

 

TN: Q2 seems a little underestimated, meaning I don’t necessarily think it’s going to be that bad. Q3? It’s possible it could be nine percent. I think given how negative it could be in Q2, you could definitely see a rebound like that. But that’s just a base effect in terms of the quarter on quarter growth. It’s not necessarily a dramatic year on year growth. In fact, year on year, that’s actually negative and a negative print. One would hope that if Q1 and Q2 are so bad that you would see a print that’s at least nine percent in Q3.

 

 

BFM: Yet markets charge ahead despite relatively bad macro data. What is this optimism based on?

 

TN: Seeing the states open, seeing some realistic plans being put together to do this, there’s a balance of doing it aggressively and carefully. I know that sounds a little silly, but we’re seeing some real push by Americans to want to open. So the state governments are going to probably do things a little more aggressively than they initially wanted.

 

There was some concern that Q1 earnings would be worse than they are. Meaning that companies may try to pack all their negative news into Q1 in hopes that Q2 will look slightly better. But sure, they’ve packed some of the negative news in Q1. But some of the Q1 earnings haven’t been as bad as people had feared. So markets are looking forward. And in the U.S., it’s a flight to safety.

 

We’re also seeing on a relative basis, U.S. markets perform fairly well as, say, non-dollar assets or overseas dollar assets come into the US.

 

 

BFM: Microsoft, Facebook, and Tesla all came out last night all the better than expected. Microsoft showing some picture of health in the corporate sector. Tesla, obviously, where car sales are concerned, then Facebook where the ad consumer market is concerned. Can we read this optimism into Q2 and possibly even into Q3?

 

TN: I think certainly Facebook and Microsoft, with people sitting at home, those two will probably do quite well in Q2. Tesla? I wouldn’t expect Tesla to do well in Q2. Auto sales have been way down in Q2. And with oil and gas prices as low as they are, the substitutionality effect of electronics from internal combustion engine cars, the incentive is not as high as it once was. So I don’t necessarily see Tesla’s performance to be better than expected. But then again, Tesla bulls are Tesla bulls. They’ll buy, and they’ll pump up the price regardless of how they perform in real life.

 

BFM: So you don’t expect this to be a broader momentum for the broader market?

 

TN: Anything focused on productivity, anything focused on virtual activity, will do very, very well. But things like car sales, again, they’ve been really difficult. Anything around entertainment or group, physical, in-person, entertainment, obviously, it’s just not possible or hasn’t been possible for those to grow. So those are going to be really, really hard for people to get optimistic about.

 

On the other hand, you’ve seen, energy firms actually performing really well today. The major oil and gas firms and U.S. markets performed really well. Part of that is on the back of gossip that the U.S. Treasury may come to the rescue with some preferential financing for American oil and gas firms. Whether or not that’s going to happen, we don’t really know yet. But that may come to pass, which may help some of these firms.

 

BFM: Talking about the oil industry, are there any structural changes they can make to improve their prospects of survival? Some of these oil majors that you spoke of?

 

TN: Oil and gas firms are incredibly inefficient. There are a lot of productivity changes the oil and gas firms could make, whether they’re NOCs, the national oil companies, or the private sector majors. Oil and gas workers tend to make a lot more than other sectors.

 

They tend to be more bloated, so there are a lot of productivity measures that can be taken. For NOCs, for the national oil companies, there can be more activities taken to make them more accountable than markets. And so I think in Malaysia, you’re lucky. Petronas performs pretty well.

 

But other NOCs don’t perform as well and you can see some major changes in terms of fiscal accountability. Assuming oil prices stay lower, accountability to the central governments and performance rather than the subsidies coming from central governments, as we’ve seen in the past, may come to pass in some countries if they can’t really afford to continue to subsidize these governments. Because, you know, we’re seeing the emerging market and middle-income country currencies come under a lot of pressure versus the U.S. dollar. If you’re seeing energy revenues decline and you’re seeing pressure on the currency, it’s really hard for some of these governments to subsidize their national oil companies.

 

Categories
Podcasts

Why Bank Stocks are Falling?

BFM 89.9 discusses with Tony Nash about why bank stocks are falling — the US markets were dragged down by financial stocks as big banks JP Morgan, Wells Fargo and Citigroup reported their first-quarter earnings.

 

Find this podcast originally published at the BFM: The Business Station.

 

 

Show Notes:

BFM: Right now, taking a look at the wider global markets, we speak to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete intelligence. Tony, thank you for taking the time to speak to us today. The Fed book was released showing that almost all economic data activity has stopped and the question is how difficult will it be to restart it? Do you expect even more contraction?

 

TN: Very difficult. I mean, as we’ve talked about before, this is a government-mandated shut down, so it’s going to take a lot of fiscal stimulus to get things restarted. That’s why you’ve seen governments come out with such large stimulus programs. We don’t believe it’s a situation where central banks can wave a magic wand and use monetary policy to get things started. It’s not that kind of problem. This is a problem that has to be addressed with fiscal stimulus and direct spending from governments.

 

BFM: Is there enough fiscal stimulus so far?

 

TN: No. We’re two weeks into the second quarter, and when we look at all of the country, where the orders to not work are in place, it’s going to be at least two to three to four, maybe six weeks before some countries are up and running. And because a this is government-mandated order, those governments have to find a way to compensate individuals and companies for those close-down orders. Otherwise, we’d have catastrophic economic contraction. Spending is a key component of the GDP calculation. So if you count “don’t spending” as a substitutional factor to consumption and investment, you can still grow your economy or have it not contract as much as it would. Governments are feverishly trying to find find where they can spend, but I think many governments don’t really have the money. They accumulated so much debt over the last 10 or 20 years, they don’t have the money to be able to stimulate the way they need to.

 

BFM: Tony, Mexico’s been downgraded by Fitch to just one or just one level of Junk. Do you think this portends a rash of similar downgrades by other agencies?

 

TN: Oh, sure, absolutely. I think emerging and middle income markets are going to have a tough year. And that’s the case because we have a strong US Dollar and are likely going to have a stronger US Dollar. And on a relative basis, emerging market currencies are going to have a real uphill battle. So those emerging markets that are export-dependent will have a tough time, as well as we see consumption collapse. So I don’t want to sound entirely pessimistic, and it’s actually quite hopeful once we hit, say, July or August. But, Q2 is a very, very difficult situation. And the quicker governments can get their countries moving from an economic perspective, the better off we are.

 

BFM: So Tony, let’s move back to the US for a bit. The banks, the big banks, have started releasing the Q1 results with JP Morgan, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America and Citi or reporting significantly lower profits and more particularly huge provisions there, some as five times more than usual. What does this tell you about the broader economy? What are they expecting at least?

 

TN: Well, we’ve been trying to tackle all the bad news now. That’s for Q2. They can say, we accounted for that before and they can report better numbers in Q3. And this is all relative. A lot of companies are going to report horrific numbers for Q2. But, you know, the government is coming in and encourage loan repayment to be delayed and backed up the number of loans as well.

 

So should these provisions be larger than they are or as large as they are? Maybe that’s a prudent thing to do. But it looks really like there, you know, these provisions should have been in Q2, not necessarily in Q1. So I think they’re being conservative and I think that’s fine. But I think to some extent it’s really you just tacking all the bad news or what they expect to be the bad news into Q1 so that they can look better later in the year.

 

BFM: Yeah, that’s always what this was about to ask you, actually, Tony. Do you think they’re trying to pack as much bad news in this quarter as possible? Yes. But I think on on the call yesterday with Bank of America’s chief financial officer, he also seemed a bit, well, at sea in terms of really putting a finger on exactly what kind of quantums provisions might lead to the next quarter. Do you think they really know what’s happening around the corner, do you think?

 

TN: I don’t think they know. And I know that, the US banks are really, say take serious problems with like with PPP, these are small business loans. They’re just overwhelmed with the number of applications for these small business loans. That loan processing is truly inefficient and it’s not all the banks’ fault because it was, the US department pretty pretty quickly. So they’re kind of doing the best they can, but those are not their most efficient operations and we’re having to just adjust to where the attention is.

So I think they don’t know how bad it is. Until we know when some of these stay at home orders will be lifted, nobody really knows. And it’s the same thing in Asia as it is here. You’d see all these kids schooled, and it’s a problem, and so until it’s lifted, we really don’t know the full extent of the economic damage.

 

BFM: Well, speaking about Asia, even after better than expected March trade figures, People’s Bank of China cut medium term lending rates by 20 basis points. What do you read from what they just did?

 

TN: Honestly, guys, a 20 basis points isn’t going to do anything. I mean, nobody is going to take a loan out because it’s 20 basis points cheaper. What China needs is a very large fiscal stimulus package to make sure that their factory workers and other certain workers are given, maybe not a full wage, but enough of a wage to continue to get by. Our major worry for China this year is a very sharp contraction of industrial production, meaning manufacturing. We’re looking for contraction in exports starting in February, going through March and April, May, simply because the consumption markets are not there.

 

There is a global demand problem. So there is a demand problem domestically in China, but there’s also a demand problem in the rest of the world. So how can China, which is an assembly point and a maker of finished goods, how can China have kind of relatively normal export data when the rest of the world isn’t buying. It’s just not possible. So, you know, what we’re worried about is the industrial production contraction in China and we’re worried about deflation in China.

 

We think deflation will be worse in China than in any other parts of the world because of the dependence on manufacturing. So it’s manufacturing insures on making stuff, their workers aren’t working, and so they don’t have the money to buy stuff. And so that creates a huge gap in demand, which is likely deflationary, which is a big, big worry for us.

 

BFM: I’m wondering, though, I mean, if it’s not likely to move the needle by too much, why would it cut interest rates?

 

TN: I think a lot of central banks right now are going through the motions, hoping to kind of ride on the coattails of the big moves at the ECB, BOJ and Fed are doing, right? PBOC is is taking some big moves. So I’m not saying that they’re not doing their part. They’re definitely playing a part. But little moves like this, I think with what we’ve seen is generally a big action is taken. We saw this with the first Fed action and so does in the central bank with the OPEC move over the weekend, right? A big action is taking, and the markets really just going on, they don’t care that a big action has been taken. But what happens is a series of smaller actions are then taken, and markets take notice. So if anything, I think there’s 20 basis point cut is in one action among many that the PBOC is planning so that they can gradually feed that market expectation.

 

But again, the markets are really bored and not satisfied by a single big move. They’re looking for a series of moves, can be satisfied and to gradually kind of re-course positive expectations into markets. But 20 basis points is not going to do it, especially when you’re looking at a fall in manufacturing or fall in wages, a fall in consumption, and potential deflation. Nobody is going to take out a market rate loan when they have all these other worries to tick down the list.

 

BFM: All right. Thank you so much for spending some time with us this morning. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence.