In this podcast episode from BFM 89.9, the hosts discuss the latest updates on global markets and dive into the US debt talks. They are joined by Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, who shares his perspective on the debt ceiling and its potential impact on the markets. Tony believes that a US debt default is unlikely and views the current concerns as overblown political maneuvering. He highlights that the debt ceiling issue arises regularly and is often resolved at the last minute, causing frustration among Americans.
The conversation then shifts to the state of the US economy, particularly the labor market. Tony notes that there is fatigue in jobs growth, with ongoing layoffs in various industries, including tech companies. The hosts also discuss the recent rise in the US April services PMI, indicating a shift from goods to services and suggesting continued growth in the services sector.
Nvidia’s quarterly results become the focus of the discussion, as the company outperformed expectations and experienced significant stock price growth. Tony explains that Nvidia is a key player in the AI infrastructure space and has benefited from the increasing adoption of AI and machine learning technologies. However, he cautions that the high valuation and potential impact of a recession on corporate infrastructure spending could affect Nvidia’s future performance.
The podcast concludes with a recap of Nvidia’s financial performance and analyst expectations, noting the positive sales figures and high target price. The hosts question whether a company involved in AI deserves the current forward PE ratio of 66 times.
Overall, this podcast provides insights into the US debt ceiling issue, the state of the labor market, and the performance of Nvidia in the context of the broader market trends.
Transcript
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The Business Station. BFM 89.9. It’s 7:06 A.M. On Thursday the 25 May. You’re listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar, with Wong Shou Ning and Mark Tan. In half an hour, we’re going to be discussing the outlook for Netflix and the US streaming services. But as always, we’re going to kick start the morning with a recap on how global markets closed overnight.
BFM
The markets are all red, probably thanks to the jitters surrounding the US debt talks. In the US markets, the Dow Jones was down 0.8%, S&P500 down 0.7%, and Nasdaq down 0.6%. Over here in the Asian markets, Nikkei down 0.9%, Hang Seng down 1.6%, Shanghai Composite down 1.3%, STI down 0.1%, and our own FBM KLCI down 0.1%.
BFM
All right, so for more insights on what’s moving markets we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Thanks, as always, for joining us. So let’s start with what seems to be keeping markets on tenterhooks. In recent commentary, though, you’ve opined that a US debt default really isn’t on the table. So why do you say that? And why are current concerns of a debt default overblown, in your view?
Tony
Yeah, so the debt ceiling literally happens every other year in the US. And it’s happened for the past 15 years. So I’ve said this many times. This is shameless partisan positioning intended to show politicians coming to the rescue of a crisis that they created themselves. So they’ll get media attention. Then at the last minute, probably after the deadline, they’ll miraculously find a solution when everything seems the most chaotic. So this is something that most Americans are really frustrated by. It’s like we know they’re not going to default. If they do, it’s ridiculous, and it’s just shameless partisanship. So are people here worried? To be honest, not really. I think a bunch of portfolio managers are being very careful in markets, but on a personal level, I seriously doubt that many people are all that worried.
BFM
So, putting aside the political shenanigans, of much greater importance to global markets is the state of the US economy, particularly the labor market. Is there a sense of fatigue in jobs growth or more room for expansion?
Tony
There’s definitely fatigue. If we look at the data since the end of COVID there’s a metric that the Fed…
Tony
Okay, we’re going to try and get Tony back to talk more about what’s happening with the US labor market. But as he said earlier about the debt ceiling, he’s taken a little bit of a, I guess, sanguine tone on it. He’s less worried that debt default will actually have long term implications. He thinks things will be resolved, just that it’ll take a lot of drama to get there.
BFM
Yeah, but the consequences are already being felt. I mean, I’m seeing this headline on Bloomberg, United States may be cut by Fitch on debt limit fight because US ratings have been placed on Watch Negative from Outlook Stable by Fitch. So the rating watch reflects the increased political partisanship that is hindering reaching a solution to race or suspend a debt limit despite the fast approaching, as we call it, X State. This is the first rating agency that has already given them some warning snakes, right? And once this happens, what this means is that the cost of borrowing is going to rise quite significantly on top of the fact that the interest rate in the US is already 5.2%. I mean, the Feds have raised it what, ten times since last year?
BFM
There’s a lot of moving parts to this picture, and I think there’s also discussion on what is it that other stakeholders in the US government can do if Congress can’t get its act together, what can the Treasury do? Can the Fed do anything? In any case, I think the Treasury will probably try to prioritize the debts that it owes, which means that some people will may not receive their bills. I think looking at Social Security and Medicaid and Medicare, hospitals, roads, who’s going to maintain all that?
BFM
Well, I do think that we have Tony back on the line. Tony, can you hear us?
Tony
Hi, guys. There you go. Sorry about that.
BFM
No worries.
Tony
On the debt ceiling. What’s interesting what’s happened is this week people in Congress asked Janet Yellen how she did her calculation on finding that X date. So it’s a kind of mysterious calculation and nobody knows. So people are trying to dig into that to understand when actually is the date, because nobody’s showing any math, nobody’s showing any data around it. And again, it seems like this is being hyped as a political ploy. So what you rightly point out about if it does come, the US government will have to prioritize payments. Right? And that’s fine. But again, voters and legislators don’t actually know how she’s coming up with that X date and a lot of people just don’t trust her.
BFM
Well, coming back to the point we were discussing earlier on the labor market, Tony, what’s your sense of how jobs is doing there?
Tony
Yes, jobs are in a rough spot. So there’s a metric called continuous unemployment claims and they’re at their highest level since the end of 2021. So I know that isn’t a long period, but stimulus is worn off, consumer credit levels are rising really fast, and tech companies are still laying off staff. So Verizon, a big telecom carrier here, just announced today that they’re going to be doing layoffs. So we’ve seen the Amazon and Facebook. Facebook yesterday announced another layoff. And so what’s happening now? That those initial layoff announcements were made to give a boost to stock prices. But now that that boost is largely expanded, people are simply not hiring. So they’re choosing not to hire for open jobs as a way to contain their workforce through just retirements and quits and that sort of thing.
BFM
Now, Tony, the US April services PMI rose from 55.1 from 53.6, surpassing the market expectation of 52.6. Isn’t this further evidence that at least in this sector, growth hasn’t been tempered by inflation or the rate hikes?
Tony
Yeah, well, certainly I think what it’s showing is an ongoing shift from goods to services. So during COVID everyone loaded up on goods. For the past twelve to 18 months, we’ve seen a trade off of goods purchases to services purchases. That services PLI will likely continue for the next two to three months, partly because the summer here in the US is holiday season, it’s vacation season, and so services will continue to thrive through that period. So we would expect a services PMI decline, maybe not necessarily contraction, but at least decline in Q3, probably mid Q3.
BFM
Okay, Tony, can we talk about one results, one set of results that came out last night, and that’s Nvidia. Right. They really beat street expectations up 20 over percent stock price. This is one tech stock that has done exceptionally well, I think a lot to do with AI. Are you bull on this name?
Tony
Well, Nvidia has done very well, and definitely top line growth surpassed expectations. So Nvidia is to the AI boom, which Cisco was to the Internet boom 20 plus years ago. Right. So they’re selling the infrastructure for AI and machine learning and a lot of these new capabilities, and people need them. And that same infrastructure is used for crypto mining and other things. So they planned extremely well, and they’re kind of reaping the profits of that right now. So as long as we continue to see companies adopting and expanding AI and machine learning capabilities, the value in Nvidia should be there. I don’t necessarily want to make a prediction on the stock price where it is right now. It’s a pretty high price in terms of valuation and other things. But I think in terms of corporate performance, it’s certainly strong and will remain strong.
BFM
So do you think any stock that has an edge or have first mover advantage when it comes to AI deserves a premium? Just pretty much like Tesla when it comes to electric vehicles?
Tony
Well, I think when you’re looking at a stock value, you have to look at the forward expectations. And so do you believe, or does an investor believe that that company that provides either AI software or AI hardware or something like that, do they believe there’s growth in that area? And if they believe there’s growth, so what’s the multiple on that growth and how quickly will it come? That’s how people come up with those price expectations.
BFM
Yeah, because when I look at Nvidia, the Bloomberg showing a PE of 66 times forward PE. So it looks like markets are really expecting a lot of growth.
Tony
Oh, yeah, they do. And I think part of the problem is people really load up on hardware first. And so that growth may very well continue at that same pace. But it really all depends on what happens to corporate infrastructure spending. And if that corporate infrastructure, meaning IT infrastructure spending continues, then it’s really good news for Nvidia. If we do hit a recession, then corporate infrastructure spending could be hit and that could hit Nvidia in a negative way.
BFM
Tony, thanks as always for the chat. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, talking to us about some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. Capping the conversation there with just some thoughts on how Nvidia has performed. And we do have their results coming out overnight, right? They did really well, performing well beyond Wall Street expectations. Their sales in the three months ending July will be about $11 billion, which is 53% higher than what analysts were foreseeing.
BFM
Revenue for the first quarter was $7.2 billion versus 6.5 expected, while earnings per share was $1.9 adjusted versus the $0.92 expected.
BFM
Okay. Sorry.
BFM
Net income was $2.5 billion versus $1.62 billion from the same period last year.
BFM
Okay. I’m so excited to tell you how many analysts cover this. Well, a lot. 44 buys, 13 holds. No sells at all. At all. Okay. So consensus target price, $307, which is already very, very close to the regular market hours share price, which was down one dollars. And but I know aftermarket hours, the stock boomed, shattered by ceiling by going up by 20%. So I won’t be surprised if a lot of the analysts actually rush out to upgrade. But the ceiling to me is the fact that PE forward PES are 66 times. Do you think a company involved in AI deserves 66 times? Which was my question for Tony.
BFM
That’s right. And I think AI is going to be driving a lot of investor interest in these kinds of stocks. But let’s turn to another stock in the tech sector that hasn’t been doing so well or hasn’t done so well recently. Then that’s snowflake. Their sales outlook for the current quarter fell short of analyst expectations, and this did lead to a share downturn. Snowflake software helps businesses organize data in the cloud, and their quarterly revenue is expected to be growing at 34%, but well below Wall Street expectations.
BFM
Snowflake also cut its outlook for the fiscal year, saying product revenue will be about $2.6 billion versus 2.7 it predicted early in March. Analysts had feared that a slowdown demand for cloud services would dance. Snowflake’s pay as you go model.
BFM
Okay.
BFM
But still quite popular with analysts. 29 buys, 13 holds, two sells, albeit not as popular as Nvidia. Consensus target price for the stock, $188. Last time, priced during regular market hours, it was up all right at 718 in the morning.
BFM
We’re going to take a quick break, but we’ll come back to cover more top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned BFM 89.9.
BFM
You you have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the BFM app.
Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, spoke to BFM about what is moving international markets.
The recent April headline CPI numbers were better than the projected 5%, coming in at 4.9%. However, core inflation still printed at 5.5%, and so the Fed is unlikely to cut, making it hard for them to stop raising interest rates. The Fed’s rate rise vote was unanimous this month, indicating that the Fed will continue to raise by 25 basis points in June. Tony said the Fed will look at wages and employment figures along with consumer sentiment, producer prices and credit indicators as well.
With regards to the debt ceiling, Tony said it was a US domestic political tool, and in the end, it would last longer than most people wanted it to last, and we would see some melodramatic brinksmanship.
85% of S&P 500 companies have reported actual results for Q1 2023 to date, and of these, 79% have reported actual EPS above estimates. Tony explained that a lot of this is down to margin expansion, and as raw materials prices fell, labor costs rose quickly, allowing companies to raise their prices further.
However, companies are starting to slow down on price rises as consumers are fatigued with the rises. Some tech companies have started laying people off or signaling no pay rises this year, as they realize pushing price rises is something they won’t be able to do much longer in 2023.
Transcript
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, The Business Station.
BFM
BFM 89.9. Good morning. It’s 7:07 A.M. On Thursday the 10 May. You are listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Keith Kam and Mark Tan. Now in half an hour, we’re going to zoom in on the outlook for Chinese equity markets, specifically the Shanghai Composite and the Hang Seng Index. But let’s recap how global markets closed overnight.
BFM
In the US market, stocks mostly climb as better inflation data offset worries about the stalled talks between political leaders that have raised fears of a US default. The Dow was down 0.1%, but S&P 500 up 0.5%, and Nasdaq up 1%. In the Asian markets, it’s rate traffic lights Nikkei down 0.4%, Hang Seng down 0.5%, Shanghai Composite down 1.2%, STI down 0.2% and FBM KLCI down 0.5%.
BFM
So for some thoughts on what’s moving international markets, we have on the line with us Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Always good to have you. Let’s start with CPI numbers. April headline CPI numbers came in at 4.9%, better than the projected 5%. Do you think this will have an impact on the Fed’s policy decision in the near term?
Tony
Yeah, I think it’s unlikely by the next meeting. So what we have to look at is what’s called core inflation. And core inflation still printed at five and a half percent. And so that is hitting people enough that it’s really hard for the Fed to stop. They’re certainly not going to cut, but it’s really hard for them to stop raising when core inflation is still at 5.5%. So we have things like food inflation is still up 7.7% on an annual basis. Electricity is up over 8%. Transportation inflation is up 11%. So as these things are still rising at this rate, it’s really hard unless we see some other compelling data come in, it’s really hard to see the Fed either pause or cut. Now what we also have to recognize is the Fed’s rate rise vote was a unanimous vote in favor of a rate rise this month. Typically, before we see a change in policy, we’ll have votes that are not unanimous. So it seems to me that going into the June meeting, at this point, it’s likely the Fed will continue to raise by 25 basis points in June.
BFM
What are some of the other indicators that the Fed may be looking at in order to help refine this decision, Tony? What are you going to be watching coming out next in the weeks ahead of the June meeting?
Tony
Yeah, they’ll look at consumer sentiment, they’ll look at producer prices, they’ll look at wages, these sorts of things. They’ll look at employment. So the key things they’re looking at are really wages and employment. That’s really it. There are a number of other macro metrics that come out, like retail sales, that the Fed doesn’t really look at that stuff. So you don’t really hear markets here moving on retail sales. It’s more at this point in the cycle. It’s things like wages. They may also be looking at things like credit because we’re staring down, really a credit crunch, which is tight credit because rates have moved and because of the banking risks we’ve seen in the US over the past probably six to eight weeks. And so they may start looking at more credit indicators to see how that’s slowing down.
BFM
Now, US Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen has sounded alarm over possible financial market consequences if the debt ceiling was not raised by early June. What would those consequences be, and how likely would it be for Congress to strike a deal by then?
Tony
Yeah, I want to kind of help you guys and your listeners understand that the debt ceiling is really a US domestic political tool. Okay, so the debt ceiling is an annual ritual that we have here where each party threatens the other to cut programs, so say programs that the other party loves. Right. So at the end of the debt ceiling, all of the politicians just agree to spend anyway. So there will be threats that the US will run out of money, but it won’t. It’s not going to happen. The Treasury always finds money. You will likely see us get to some point where, for example, they’ll close national parks or they’ll say federal employees can’t come to work. Those are really signaling more than substantive because all of those employees get paid. We know that the debt ceiling will be signed three or four or five weeks after that happens, and all those employees get their back pay. It’s not as if anybody’s going hungry. They all have their health care while this is happening. So what will happen, and this is very predictable, and it’s a big eye-roll for most Americans. In the end, this will last a lot longer than any of us want it to last.
Tony
And we’ll see some sort of last minute melodramatic Brinksmanship to kind of save America. When we hear about the debt ceiling, we hear breathy headlines about the debt ceiling. Most Americans just kind of ignore it because this is really a Capitol Hill Washington, DC issue more than it is something that really affects real life here.
BFM
Tony, overall, 85% of S&P 500 companies have reported actual results for Q1 2023 to date. Of these companies, 79% have reported actual EPS above estimates. How would you explain this outperformance? Is it time to chill the bubbly?
Tony
Yeah. A lot of this is down to margin expansion. So in 2021 and 22, we saw goods price inflation, which allowed these companies to raise their prices a bit. As those raw materials prices fell, we saw labor costs rise quickly, and that allowed companies to continue raising prices further. So we’re starting to see companies slow down on their price rises. Consumers here are really fatigued with price rises, so we’re starting to see companies slow down. And some tech companies started this laying people off. Some will signal that there’s, say, no pay rises this year. Microsoft has already signaled that. Some of those are prudent measures that leadership teams are taking in the event of a recession. But some of them are just a realization that pushing price rises is just something that we won’t be able to do much longer in 2023.
BFM
And let’s take a look at oil prices, Tony, they’ve been pulled or they are being pulled in opposing directions. We have deteriorating global demand outlook that has been countered by some bullish supply news from the Biden administration as well as Russia. So where do you think oil prices might be heading in the next one to two months?
Tony
Yeah, you’re right. There are definitely mixed messages in crude markets and it’s easy to take either a bearish or a bullish view, depending on what data you’re looking at. Our view is that crude could rise 5% to 10% in the next month or two, and that’s a typical annual seasonal trend. After, say, June, maybe mid, late summer, we’ll definitely see a sell off in markets. Again, that’s pretty normal for this time of year. So we would expect prices to rally a little bit from here and then we’ll see a calm, say, mid summer.
BFM
Tony, I just want to pick your brains a little bit. Gold prices, they’ve managed to stay above $2,000 for some time after hovering like just below that level for the longest time that I can remember. What do you think the direction is going forward?
Tony
Yeah, so our expectation is that gold prices are going to fall a bit over the next two months back below 1900. So we do not expect gold to stay at these elevated levels. It’s possible, but it’s just not within our forecast. So I would be careful with gold at these levels. And if your listeners believe that it’s a rally, go for it. But that’s just not what our data is telling us.
BFM
1900 is quite substantial. What do you think the reason would be to bring it down to that level?
Tony
Well, if risk is taken out of the economy, so if there’s some systemic, say, relief that the Fed or Treasury gives for banks or something like that, investors typically go into gold and crypto when there’s risk, when they fear risk, or they feel devaluation of the dollar or something like that. Right. And so if there were to be programs to support banks, to backstop banks, these sorts of things, from the position that they’re in right now, I believe it would really turn a lot of that gold trade off. And so it’s quite possible that stuff’s happening because it is a concern with the government here and the government especially as we enter a tight credit cycle, they have to make sure that banks are stable. This is a real concern for them. If there isn’t confidence in the banking system, then you’ll see this domino effect of banks to firms and so on. That’s just one scenario, but it’s possible that some sort of federal backstopping of banks for a temporary period, I’ll say additional backstopping of banks will put the risk on trade back on.
BFM
All right, Tony, thanks very much for speaking with us. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead.
BFM
I like what Tony said about the debt ceiling issue in the US. Right? That’s all political showmanship, and I guess here in Malaysia we’ll call it Wayang Kulit. Right.
BFM
So once all these shenanigans are over with the politicians who agree at Capitol Hill, and they’ll just continue spending their respective programs.
BFM
It’s nice to know that our politicians all over the world are just in it.
BFM
They’re the same. They have the same in a way. It doesn’t reflect well, though, and I think it does cause volatility, at least in the eyes of observers, regardless of what happens there. We’ll be watching that space, but let’s take our attention over to some of the earnings that have crossed our table. We have Walt Disney Company. They reported revenue and profit that were in line with Wall Street’s projections. The company did also reduce streaming losses by $400 million from the previous quarter. And this is thanks to price increases that helped offset the loss of 4 million subscribers at Disney Plus. So, on the one hand, they narrowed their losses, but they also lost subscribers.
BFM
So on the TV side of the business, disney’s direct to consumer segment, which includes the flagship Disney Plus streaming service, posted a loss of $659,000,000. However, this was significantly lower than the Street’s expectations. Right. The company plans to expand its streaming offerings by the end of the year with a new app that combines Disney Plus and Hulu.
BFM
And on the theme park site and Parks Experiences and Products division remains a bright spot for Disney. This saw a 17% increase in revenue to $7.7 billion during the most recent quarter. But I have to point out as well, disney movies, especially with their new live action version of their animation movies, haven’t been actually doing well. The Little Mermaid is coming out on May 26, and there’ll be something interesting to see if you just glean through social media.
BFM
It’s a bit controversial.
BFM
It is controversial, to say the least.
BFM
I think a lot of the live action films have been the subject of controversy in some form or another. I tend to be of the old school.
BFM
Yeah, me too.
BFM
Feeling. I mean, I like the cartoons. I’ll stick with the cartoons, thanks. But they’re trying to court a whole generation of younger viewers with their live action films. So I guess time will tell whether everything will pay off. Don’t forget that Disney is facing a number of challenges ahead. They’ve got their federal lawsuit against Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, and the writer strike is still ongoing. That is going to have an effect on some of the production that is stalled, such as with Blade and also the Disney Plus Star Wars series. Andor so all these things to watch when it comes to Disney Plus. We are coming up to 720 in the morning. We’re taking a quick break, but we’ll come back with more top stories in the newspapers and portals. Stay tuned. BFM 89.9 you have been listening to.
BFM
A podcast from BF M 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the VFM app.
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“With the addition of all stocks in the S&P 500 to our CI Futures platform, we are continuing to lead the market in providing reliable, accurate, and comprehensive financial forecasting,” said Tony Nash, CEO and Founder of Complete Intelligence. “This expansion will give our clients even greater insights to make informed long-term investment and trading decisions.”
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About Complete Intelligence Complete Intelligence Technologies, Inc (CI) is a Houston-based company that offers AI-powered financial forecasting and planning solutions to businesses and investors worldwide. Its flagship platform, CI Futures, is a globally integrated cloud-based AI platform that provides accurate market forecasts for over 1,200 assets, including all S&P 500 stocks, commodities, market indices, and economics. The company also offers RevenueFlow™ and CostFlow™, which provide automated forecasts of revenues, costs, and expenses to improve efficiency and profitability. With Complete Intelligence, businesses and investors can make informed decisions and stay ahead in finance.
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In the latest edition of “Week Ahead”, Tony Nash is joined by Daniel Lacalle, Chief Economist at Tressis, Albert Marko, and Ralph Schoellhammer from Webster University in Vienna to discuss the key themes in the market. The trio begins with a discussion on market optimism, macro earnings, and money growth, and how the market participants are overly optimistic despite interest rate rises, bank failures, and persistent inflation. Lacalle highlights the factors that are driving this optimism and provides insights into how investors can navigate the current market conditions.
Moving on, the discussion shifts to the Fed’s stance on interest rates. Albert Marko shares his view that the Fed would likely stay strong given the inflation environment and predicts two more rate hikes. He explains why he expects two more hikes and what it means for the “higher for longer” duration. The conversation provides a comprehensive analysis of the current state of the market and offers practical insights into how investors can stay ahead of the curve.
Finally, Ralph Schoellhammer takes the floor to discuss the nuclear power industry’s future, specifically the differences in approach between Germany and Japan, and other countries. The discussion offers a unique perspective on the challenges facing the industry and the potential solutions that could be implemented.
Key themes:
1. Market optimism: macro, earnings, & money growth 2. 2 more Fed hikes? 3. Nuclear: Germany vs Japan (& others)
This is the 62nd episode of The Week Ahead, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.
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Tony
Hi everybody, and welcome to The Week Ahead. I’m Tony Nash. We’ve got some great guests this week. We’ve got Daniel Lacalle. He’s the chief economist at Tressis. We’ve got Albert Marko, and we’ve got Ralph Schoellhammer from Webster University in Vienna. There’s been a lot happening this week, guys, and I think what we want to start with is Daniel had talked about market optimism and how it may be a little bit off and inappropriate for where kind of some fundamentals and other things are right now. So we’re going to jump into that at the start. Albert’s talked about two more Fed hikes. So I want to see kind of where that is and what he’s thinking and what the conditions are for that. And then for Ralph, we’re going to look at European energy. There have been some movements around nuclear energy in Germany this week and so we want to talk about that and a little bit of kind of the European environment for energy defense, those sorts of things. So guys, thank you so much for joining us.
Tony
Daniel, you had this great video out early this week talking about market optimism.
And I’d really like to kind of get some of your thoughts on that. Where is that optimism now? Is it overly optimistic? Why is it overly optimistic? And where do you think things go from here?
Daniel
Thank you so much for inviting me to start. I think the first thing that we need to understand is that we have gone from a moment in which if you look at the greed and fear index that CNN publishes, we went from extreme fear to extreme greed in less than a month. This was basically triggered by the Federal Reserve’s decision to make whole all of the depositors at Silicon Valley Bank and to implement this incredibly outrageous policy of purchasing at full price the sovereign bonds and the asset base of lenders in exchange for immediate liquidity. So that immediately reversed the reduction in the balance sheet. Federal Reserve Federal Reserve’s balance sheet has basically consumed 70% of the tightening that had happened in prior months. And with that, the market went back to extreme optimism. But interestingly, it has happened in a period in which the earnings season has started and the earnings downgrade cycle has actually accelerated. So we are not seeing it’s not like we are seeing a great earning season. It’s probably one of the worst earning season in terms of sales surprise, earnings surprise is relatively acceptable. However, it comes fundamentally from buybacks, as all of the people that are watching us or hearing us know.
Daniel
So what we are back is in multiple expansion mode and viciously in multiple expansion mode because it started with technology and it started with more cyclical stocks to the point that despite the fact that, after and we will talk about energy afterwards. But despite the production cut from OPEC and the limits to exports from Russia, oil prices are still down WTI 5% on the year. And the energy sector has seen the largest multiple expansion of them all because the earning season in energy is coming with an expected year-on-year first quarter results that will be down between 20% to 30%. Yet the market still seems to be very optimistic about that. So my concern, we’re going to be talking about maybe couple of rate hikes that very few people expect in the near future. And what most people are estimating is that the reason to buy the market in this environment is because there’s not going to be any further rate hikes. Actually, the market is discounted rate cuts in the second half of the year and because the effect of the Federal Reserve balance sheet coming back to the levels where it was prior to the tightening might reduce that liquidity crunch.
Daniel
So I’m concerned about that because the combination of multiple expansion greed and a lack of understanding of the reality of where rates are going to be may create a very significant level of volatility, probably in May, if, as we will probably discuss later, those rate hikes, which I would agree actually happen against consensus estimates.
Tony
Danielle I feel like with earnings season, when we saw banking earnings, certainly for the globally systemic banks, but with some of the regionals as well, there was a huge sigh of relief that oh gosh, it wasn’t as bad as it could have been. And I kind of feel like we’re in that zone in markets where people are like, well, everything’s fine, it’s not as bad as it could have been. Is that kind of where your head’s at, what you’re thinking? And are people positioned for things being great when we just kind of like escaped something? Are people thinking things are really good when we just kind of barely escape something?
Daniel
We need to start by this completely erroneous concept of everybody’s bearish completely. One thing is where people investors are saying in surveys, which is rubbish, okay? And the other thing is where they’re positioned and everybody is positioned for things going great, not going well, going great. And yes, you’re absolutely right, earnings were not as bad as feared. The economy might not get into a recession, but consumer confidence ism PMIs all show a very weak level of growth. So yes, I’m happy to understand why investors would be positioned for a not so bad environment. My concern is that investors are positioned for a hugely positive environment. It’s very cyclical, very involved in the stocks that plummeted in 2022 and therefore getting in those that actually require multiple expansion. So my worry is that the narrative becomes, well, things are not as bad as the doomsayers were predicting. Let’s go crazy. And that’s not obviously.
Albert
One little comment on the earnings season. And the whole not so bad sentiment of the market is how much of that is reliant on inflation? Because a lot of these companies passed on the inflation numbers to the consumers 20, 30, sometimes 40%. But now, as consumers demand destruction has taken hold, those companies can’t pass those numbers along. So how much of those earnings were affected by just inflation tailwinds versus the reality of it?
Daniel
It’s very evident what you just said, and it’s a key element because many people blame corporate profits on inflation, which is stupid, because corporate profits don’t cause inflation. They are a symptom of inflation. But when demand destruction is happening, as you’re saying, then those corporate profits and margins go back very, very quickly and people are not taking into account demand destruction. I would agree with that.
Tony
So when you talk about demand destruction, one of the things I think about is auto loans. Auto loans in the US have really started to look terrible with defaults and other things coming along. I don’t have the numbers in my mind, but I’ve seen this over the past couple of months, whereas we saw in 2021 used cars and auto loans just booming. So to me that’s one indication, especially in the US where people are in their cars all the time, when we start to see destruction in auto loans, that tells me there’s something really concerning about consumers. But what Albert just said about companies passing on inflation to consumers and Sam Rines, who’s here regularly talks about price over volume, where we’ve seen volume destruction at the expense of price rises. Are consumers starting to be tapped out? I see evidence every day of people saying, oh, consumers are tapped out, look at auto loans, look at other things. I see evidence on the other side where people say consumers aren’t tapped out, they have plenty of capacity left. So what are you guys seeing in terms of where the consumer sits in the US and in Europe?
Ralph
I would just add one thing kind of alluding a little bit to what Albert and Daniel said. When we look at the potential rate hikes, and this has been truth in the past as well, but it’s a little bit different. I would argue now is the central banks are not just hiking against inflation or market inflation, they’re also hiking against government inflation because governments try to offset inflation with more government programs, which then of course leads down the road to more inflation. So central banks, and this is probably worse in Europe because they’re the central bank is kind of an external actor for many national governments. So this is a little bit of an additional twist. I mean, this has always been a little bit the case, but I think in Europe this time, austria has been, in a recent statistic, the country with most handouts over the last three years. And this was really it was, quote unquote, “helicopter money”. It was government giving checks. I had it myself. I opened up my bank statement and there it was, the energy bonus, €500. And then there was the heating bonus, €1000. So me adapting my spending behavior according to inflation was psychologically very difficult because I got these extra 500 here, these extra thousand there. So that makes it also, I think, harder to get inflation down because the central banks have to react both to inflation from the market and inflation from central government.
Albert
Yeah, but let’s differentiate central banks versus economic policies versus the political realities where these politicians need to be reelected so they’re more than willing, for short term gain to sacrifice long term outcomes.
Daniel
You bet they will. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that the reason why the consumer is behaving relatively in a more positive way than what many would have expected comes down to the fact that we still have negative real rates and that credit is abundant. And if you look at Europe, consumption in real terms is down in absolute terms. If you look at GDP of the eurozone, you look at the part that’s the consumer the only reason why consumption was slightly higher than zero was because the GDP deflator is lower. The inflation print, which is the typical way in which governments boost GDP. The GDP inflator is lower than the real inflation rate. So the nominal number adjusted is actually coming higher in real terms. But I think it’s basically because of credit. For example, with employees and with people that work with us, we find that a lot of people are finishing the month taking short term credits, and that’s a sign. And the reason why they’re doing it is because they believe that inflation is going to come down dramatically very quickly. And that’s not what is happening. What we’re seeing is a deceleration in the pace of growth, which is very different.
Tony
So, Daniel, in this environment…
Albert
Real quick, Tony, real quick. I’m glad that you said that, Dan, because Daniel because that’s one of the Fed’s tools now is calling up the banks and telling them to restrict credit and tighten that way because there’s no real liquidity left in the market outside of corporate and the financial sector. So their plan on tightening involves bank lending and stopping it, of course.
Tony
So the capping off the transmission mechanism or one of the transmission mechanisms, which right now just makes things harder.
Tony
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Tony
So Daniel, where do you, since there is this optimism in the market that remains and seems to me that it’s people trying to eke out that last kind of, that last trade right before things maybe head down. How would you recommend people take a look at this in terms of positioning or strategy or something like that?
Daniel
Well, the first thing that I would do is to tell everyone that is being told that “now is the moment to buy long duration in bonds” is not to fall into that trap. The second thing that I would do is to avoid the view that commodities are going to go through the roof because monetary contraction, fundamentals matter, but the biggest fundamental is the quantity and the cost of money. And, and if monetary contraction is going to continue, commodities may not fall, but certainly not go through the roof, which is what many people expect. And I see a lot of people betting on one thing and the opposite. And we discussed this this morning with my team, how on the one hand, people are betting on energy commodity prices going through the roof, buying emerging markets, buying commodity linked assets, and at the same time betting on inflation coming down very quickly. What the hell are you talking about? So I would make people sit down with their portfolios and say, okay, maybe I’m wrong, but at least don’t bet on one thing and the opposite. Don’t bet on inflation coming down at the same time commodities going up.
Daniel
Don’t bet on central banks normalizing, and at the same time buy long duration assets. I think that all those things are the ones that worry me. So I would avoid long duration bonds, I would avoid ultracyclicals, and I would stick to stocks, to be fairly honest, I would stick to gold. And I always like to have US dollar exposure, because when the market corrects, having US dollar exposure gives you the cushion to look for opportunities. And we need to be, I have to start with this. We need to be 100% invested all the time. We don’t come in and out of the market.
Tony
Very good.
Albert
I think that’s important. That’s the key point. I mean, I talk to a couple of Eastern European governments all the time, and they talk about the de dollarization nonsense. And I always tell them you have to have dollars in your reserves just to combat hyperinflation. That’s just the reality of the story. No matter what some cockamania financial analysts want to talk about there’s no such thing as the dollar station if you want to combat hyperinflation.
Tony
Great points.
Daniel
I agree with that.
Tony
Great points. Okay, let’s move on to Albert.
Tony
Albert, you had earlier this week sent some tweets out about Fed hikes.
And I think the conventional view right now is that we’ll see one more hike, one more 25 basis point hike in early May. You’re contending that we’ll likely see two more. Can you kind of talk us through some of your thoughts there on why that’s happening and what some of the impacts will be?
Albert
It’s really basic. It’s the inflation issue. It’s not going away at the moment, and Europe being in a zombie status, China opening up in a staggered sense and slower than expected. Inflation still hasn’t come down. Forget about the top line numbers that you see in the media and the politicized number that goes out everywhere. But if you look at SuperCore and core inflation, it’s trending up again. It’s not coming down. Since a lot of the central bank’s tools have been already expended, the only thing they have left, really, is rate hikes. And for that reason alone, I think that we’re looking at at least well, one for sure in May, but we’re probably looking at at least another one after that, at the very least.
Tony
Okay, and then Daniel talked about how stimulating the banks has really kind of offset a lot of the QT that had been done over the last year or so. Do you see any movement on the Fed to tighten their balance sheet, or are they kind of just in this holding position until there’s 100% confidence that the banking system is stabilized?
Albert
The whole banking crisis was completely, in my opinion, falsified. I mean, they needed something to stop QT, and they got it. They unwound nine months of QT in a week. It was absolutely stunning to see that. And this is why you actually see a lot of the people in the market talk about, no, this is the new QE. This is New QE. No, it’s not QE. It’s just the stopgap measure and trying to place status quo until they hope that inflation stabilizes in the next three to six months. However, I don’t see that happening. I think that we’re looking at probably at a secondary inflation event, not as high as it was last year, but marginally higher from this point on.
Tony
Okay, so when we see rates rising, say, another 50 basis points, and we see banks not lending, and we see some of these credit issues coming up, how does that impact things like housing? We continue to see house prices stay pretty stable, actually.
Albert
The problem that we have is, although the banks are tightening from the West Coast of the United States and New York Fed, but the middle part of America and southern part of America, the banks were still lending. I mean, you can still go out in the housing market and still see an appreciation in prices in housing at the moment, right? You don’t see that in New York, you don’t see that in California, but everywhere else in the United States, it’s happening. So the problem I see is that it’s a patchwork. They’re trying to do a comprehensive policy for tightening specifically the housing and consumer markets, but it just doesn’t work because it’s so fragmented at the moment. You can’t tell banks not to make money after six months. It’s just not going to happen. I mean, they’re going to find ways to give loans out to people because they’re banks. They rely on margins.
Tony
Right. And you also mentioned SuperCore and kind of the inflationary aspects of that. What are you seeing on wages and what will slow down wage growth, especially in the middle of the US.
Albert
Nothing. I mean, the tourist season is upon us now in the United States and also coming up in Europe, and I don’t see wage inflation slowing down one bit. And this is actually something that Janet Yellen and Brainerd wanted. They wanted wage inflation because it’s politically advantageous to them.
Tony
Okay, so the Fed is looking at SuperCore. Wages aren’t slowing down. Wages are a big contributor to that through services prices. So it feels like we’re in this continuous loop that just doesn’t stop. What is that? Is there kind of just no end to this or at least for the next, I don’t know, six months or something?
Albert
This is what we’ve talked about numerous times on this podcast, is this doom loop of, like, Fed policies and then political policies intermixing and muddying up the waters, and you just get an inflationary loop over and over again. I mean, nothing’s been actually fixed. I mean, the supply side okay, a little bit. It’s come back online to a marginal degree, but like I said, European in a zombie status. They’re not even really opening. I mean, manufacturer is not opening in Europe again. China is staggered in their opening. So we’re just going to get this doom loop until political policies start coming back into more realistic terms.
Tony
Okay, so, Daniel, you had mentioned something about May around some events potentially happening in May. So with more Fed rate hikes, do you expect markets to take a bit of a turn in May?
Daniel
I think so. I think that if all these things that we’ve just mentioned are absolutely critical because it’s the opposite of what the average of the market thinks. The average of the market thinks that inflation is coming down dramatically and that, yes, core inflation is rising, but core inflation lags by they invent these things that core inflation lags by months with headline inflation. It’s something that has been completely she just gets so angry as an economy. No, the reason why core inflation is rising is because all those secondary effects of the previous inflationary wave are building in the economy, and ultimately the money supply growth is coming down, but money supply growth continues to be above real GDP. In May, you will probably have a few things now. To start with, the base effect that has given these headline positive numbers on inflation fades Away, because basically everybody oh, inflation is coming down. Yes, of course, over a 9% number. The second one is that right now there is this very optimistic view about the global growth. I find it amazing to see that the Chinese slowdown, that the Chinese recovery being virtually in existence is not something that has created more headlines.
Daniel
In fact, it’s rather the opposite. And the stagnation that Albert was just mentioning is something that is not embedded in people’s estimates. People are estimating 3% growth for the global economy with the Eurozone escaping recession with a one and a half percent growth, the United States not entering into a recession, despite all of the indicators that we have mentioned before. So all those things tend to happen between May and June because also, if you remember Tony, is that a lot of people that sell the bullish argument for the economy always talk, every year, the tale of, oh, but from June onwards, it gets better. Okay, so people do the back half of the year.
Tony
The back half of the year in every economy is the back half of the year.
Daniel
It’s a tale of two of two years. I’ve been an investment banker as well, but with the point that I’m trying to say is that for those first five months, there’s a lot of confidence in that story. But then reality bites and we see consumption stagnant, growth stagnant, persistent inflation. And central banks have only one tool, which is rate hikes. They’re not tightening the balance sheet because they can’t. So this is like the Pringles advert once you pop, you can’t stop.
Tony
Yeah, it’s interesting you mentioned 3% growth. My view of these IMF releases the world economic outlooks. They’re PR. They’re not necessarily solid economics. And our view has been, is China going to grow at 5.3 or whatever? The IMF is saying no. Is the US. Going to grow at 1.8 or whatever? No. Our view is the US. Is going to grow maybe at one kind of right around there. Q2, Q3 are going to look really difficult. And so we do get these kind of pump pieces out of the IMF saying, and they always say global growth is going to be better unless the prevailing sentiment is totally negative. Then they’ll be really bearish just to align with that. But these are really PR pieces, more than solid kind of economic outlooks. Is that kind of your view?
Daniel
It’s absolutely spot on. The IMF has hundreds of top-notch economists looking at all sorts of models and analysis of the economy. But ultimately, and I’ve worked with a few of them, ultimately, when they have to put together the estimates for the world. Each country goes to each of the analysts and says, “wow, come on, you’re not going to put 1%, it’s going to be 2%.” And what are they going to say? “Okay, fair enough.” Have you ever seen a government say, we’re not going to grow this year? Never. So the IMF has, interestingly, a tremendous level of predictive capacity of recessions, but never predicts it publicly. Predicts them publicly because as you said, it’s hugely diplomatic. So that’s why it’s always a downgrade of growth story. And now what they do is that we have to do with the CFO and C meeting is that we have to read between the lines. And what they do now is that they maintain the polish argument, but they give sort of subliminal messages about weaker things here and there. And it’s usually buried between page 20 and page 30 of their release. And between page 20 and page 30 of their release, what you have is that credit impulse is plummeting in developed economies.
Tony
That’s right. So far, very happy show, very optimistic show, guys. I just want to thank you for that. It’s been awesome so far. So, Ralph, let’s move on to Germany and energy in Europe. So the Germans announced this week that they’re halting or that they stopped their nuclear plants.
Tell me about that. Why is that happening?
Ralph
Well, they did, right? So this was on April 15, they shut off their last three nuclear power plants. So Germany is, at the moment of us speaking here, is a nuclear power-free country. I mean, inside the country, Europe has an integrated electricity grid. So they still on occasion get plenty of nuclear energy from the Czech Republic and from France. But Germany has left the world of nuclear power. And that’s of course the problem. It’s an integrated grid. So some people pointed out, why is everybody making such a drama out of this? Germany was a net electricity export the last year. That is all true. But this is the problem. So it’s not just a problem for Germany. It’s a problem for the entire energy situation in Europe. And just to put a few numbers on this, at the moment the average megawatt hour in Europe is still about twice as much as the average megawatt hour in China. So that is a problem for manufacturing. And if you take the United States, you have this absurd situation that in the shale patch, right? The oil production has natural gas as kind of a side product.
Ralph
So they literally have to burn natural gas because they don’t know what to do with it. So natural gas prices are down. So to quote Emmanuel Macron, he wants to make Europe the third superpower. But if we look at energy prices in these hypothetical three superpowers, Europe is at the dead end. Energy here is still much too expensive. And if we look at the manufacturing sector versus the service sector, the service sector in Europe is not doing so bad at the moment. It’s even expanding, but manufacturing is suffering. And some and I think those people are not entirely wrong, would say that manufacturing is in a recession and it makes a lot of sense. And we kind of enter now what Albert mentioned, we enter this doom cycle because now you have in Germany and other European countries this idea, “oh, this is not a problem.” We’re going to make a special industry energy price where the government guarantees a specific price per megawatt hour, but the government guarantees a specific price for the access to energy. But that energy still must come from somewhere. Currently you have the German energy minister and the chancellor traveling all the coastal cities in Germany because there’s a lot of local resistance against new LNG ports.
Ralph
But those LNG ports are the promise how they’re going to solve the problem of having abandoned nuclear. So a lot of the things that are supposed to replace nuclear are things that are currently in planning that haven’t materialized yet. So I would argue that for the foreseeable future, whether we will call it an energy crisis kind of overdramatic, but there’s definitely going to be a lot of pressure on prices in the energy market because energy production, whether it’s electricity or other areas, is not keeping up. Will there be a shortage? I don’t think there will be a shortage. Europe is still rich enough to buy it, but it’s going to be more expensive. And that price is going to end up one way or another on the bills, on the monthly bills of the consumers.
Tony
So I had dinner last night here in rural Texas with two Germans and a Belgian, and I was asking them about this.
Ralph
That’s the beginning of a great joke.
Tony
It is. It really is. But when I asked them about started asking about energy and nuclear in Germany, they said, we’re going to stop here and we’re only going to give yes no answers because they were so annoyed by the policy and so annoyed by kind of just how crazy some of these decisions are. So it sounds to me like it’s kind of just a nod in my backyard, a NIMBY type of deal where Germans don’t want nuclear energy in their country, but they’re happy to take energy derived from nuclear, not their countries.
Ralph
Not not at all. That’s what the really frustrating thing about the story is. The majority of the German population is by now this was not the case five, six years ago, but by now, after the energy crisis of last year, a majority, according to the most recent polls and I think Tracy talked about this in one of the most recent episodes of The Week Ahead as well. A majority is now pronuclear. There’s even now an idea that the German states, Bavaria particularly, they want to keep them running. They want to basically buy them from the federal government and keep them running on their own. And even for that there would be a majority. There is a broader issue. Albert tends to allude to this, and Daniel also kind of talked a little bit about it when he talked about kind of politicians or certain forecasters, not necessarily saying the truth. In the last decades, the economic expansion and the globalization under US and Germany was so comfortable and ran so well that we could afford to have very unrealistic politicians and elect them into office. And with the Greens in Germany, that is the case. But now we have kind of a reassertion of reality.
Ralph
And I think many governments, I would argue also in the United States, struggle with that. And I don’t mean this to be facetious or provocative, but we also have a problem in recruitment, let’s say in civil service. And these.
Tony
Oh my gosh.
Ralph
Bureaucracies in some areas they are good, right? Finland, I think, is very well managed. Denmark does a pretty good job. So there are some that are well managed. But areas in the United States, the major powers at the moment, like France and Germany and Europe, they have a problem. Their bureaucracy is not what it was in the course my favorite time span in the 19th century. And they still live off the capital. They still have their reputation, right? When you say Germany, you think about clean streets and a well run bureaucracy and all these kind of things. But we saw during the COVID Pandemic something that Tony and I we talked about before the show, that it was not that well run like the Germans, for example, the way they communicated throughout the country, the numbers of infections, they did it via fax machines because the entire health system was not fully digitalized.
Ralph
So that is a problem that’s a little bit under the surface. But given a world, let’s say that is where politics becomes more important because countries are becoming more risk averse and kind of very often want to hedge their bets. I think some countries are not at the moment in a position to do that because we have neither the politicians nor the civil service to do this. I mean, just a quick example, no offense towards the United States.
Tony
Be offensive for the US. It’s okay.
Ralph
If you look at Congress, I mean, you literally have people that are either demented or at the brink of dementia or who had recently had a stroke. Nothing against these people personally, but that’s a luxury you can afford when everything is going well. I think that once somebody said we’re rich enough to be stupid, I think we’re no longer that rich to be that stupid. And I think that’s going to be a bigger problem. I know it’s a little bit metaphorical, but I think that’s going to be a bigger problem going forward.
Tony
No, it’s true. I tell people all the time, our people in congress and in the federal government. They’re all like, 124 years old, and they just can’t relate to people who actually work. But we elect these people. I don’t understand why. European Bureaucratic in Aptitude. I’d like to introduce you to Washington DC. Because Europe is perfect compared to what we have in DC.
Ralph
And it’s there’s one thing I think Albert is going to love this. I don’t know if it’s true, but supposedly in this leak document from last week, it turned out that two thirds of employees at the Pentagon are under 30 years old. And one would argue that at least in some ways, if you look at foreign policy and diplomacy as it is conducted, again, also by Europeans at the moment. Right.
Ralph
I think there is a lack of skill. There is a lack of fine tuning. Again, I don’t think that these are bad people. I don’t think they do it because they’re ill intentioned. I think they simply do not have the required skill set.
Tony
But let me push back on that a little bit. If they’re young, at least they have a stake in their future. When we look at US politicians who average 124 years old, they don’t have a stake in their future. Okay? They’ve been in these roles for decades. And honestly, will they be around in five or ten years to deal with the ramifications of their policy? I just don’t believe they are, and I don’t believe they care.
Albert
Yeah, Tony, but the problem is they don’t have the experience and they’re ideologically biased. This is the problem when you start working in diplomacy, is you have to be very fluid and very gray area, and a lot of people aren’t. Whenever you take a position based on your political ideology, it hurts things. I mean, look what Blinken did in Brazil and Colombia. Shifted them over to the left, and then now they’re sitting there talking, damning, the United States at the UN for perpetuating wars and stuff. Like I said, when you lack experience and overly politically biased, it’s a problem in diplomacy, it’s on both sides of the aisle.
Tony
Yeah, absolutely.
Daniel
It’s the worst combination. You have 120 year old people in the leadership positions that don’t want change, and you have all the ground staff and the people that are doing the work that are less than 30 years old and that have been told that two plus two equals 22, and that the money making machine will solve everything. So I’m like, oh, my God. The condemnation. However, I will say one thing in the defense of the United States, the massive bureaucratic machine doesn’t weigh more than 50% of the economy in the European Union.
Ralph
It does. Oh, yeah.
Daniel
And what you were mentioning before is scary because think about this. You have a massive energy crisis. You have the evidence that you have to rely more on, that Germany had to go and suddenly depend more on late night on coal and massively import energy from the United States. We have been saved in the eurozone of a massive recession by an extremely mild winter. Despite having all the luck and understanding that you have made a massive mistake, you double down on the mistake. This is the same, by the way, it’s happening in Spain, it’s happening in Italy, where they’re trying to completely overrule the shareholders decision on the major utility company. And you’ve mentioned a critical thing is that you cannot expect the European Union to provide growth and manufacturing improvement with those levels of energy costs. Today’s, PMI manufacturing PMI is at 43 month low after the next generation EU, massive monetary and fiscal expansion and all the subsidies you could imagine to industries, as you very well mentioned.
Tony
So it feels like we’re facing a bit of a hangover. So this is kind of a very doomy episode, guys.
Albert
It’s the free money policies that’s been around for decades. And everyone thinks, especially the younger, under 30 people, they listen to Bernie Sanders and say, oh, everything should be paid for by the government and this and that. But they don’t want to talk about the ramifications 15 – 20 years down the line. They see money now and that’s it.
Tony
Right? Yeah. Okay. So, Ralph, you and Albert talked about US DOD, and we had a viewer question come up on Twitter when I talked about this episode, asking about Europe paying for NATO and Europe paying for their own defense. And the question said the Trump administration tried to get Europe to pay more of their NATO costs, and the Biden administration is trying to get Europe to pay more of their NATO costs. Is that something that will ever happen? Will Europe ever pay their own way fully of their NATO costs?
Albert
Well, go ahead.
Ralph
With few exceptions, right. Poland does Greece, of course, for different reasons. Greece does because they feel threatened by yet another NATO member in the form of Turkey, which has a certain irony to it. And I think there’s two Baltic states to do as well. But, yeah, I agree. I agree with Albert. You see, it even there was all this excitement about Sweden’s joining NATO, but one of the first things the Swedes said was, well, but we’re not going to meet the 2% of GDP target before 2028, which means when the new government is probably going to be in power. So they’re already pushing this forward to the next government. And Albert also tweeted about this. Even in Germany, they asked the parliamentarian in charge of the armed forces, and she said they haven’t seen her words, like I’m quoting here, “we haven’t seen a single cent of the promised additional 100 billion for the titan vendor.” The time change. So this has been in Germany, at least a lot of this has been talk, but not much have happened. And even if you look at European military spending, for some of them, not all of them.
Ralph
But again, if you take Germany and some others, if you subtract pensions and wages and all these kind of things, the kind of money that really goes into military readiness is very small. I always argue this always gets me a lot of hate, but I argue I think the United States should make I don’t know what the English word for this is but a kind of cold turkey for the Europeans and say, we have provided defense for you long enough. You have the economic power. You can provide it for yourselves. As Albert well knows, and I’m sure Daniel as well, from the occasional Twitter fight, there are so many Europeans who claim we are on the US occupation and Macron means we are the vassals of the United States. All right? I mean, if we are that good as Europeans, if we can do it on our own, I think the Americans should call our bluffs. And then there will be a rearrangement, right? Poland will become more important. Germany will become less important unless they step up their game. But I think this idea that if you tell Europeans the Americans will always continue to pay, you create zero incentives for the Europeans to pay more.
Tony
Right?
Daniel
But even if you do say the Americans are not going to pay any, the problem in Europe is that that ship has sailed, is that people are still going to think that we are going to get the level of security that we have out of thin air, that you don’t need to spend in military. That problem is not easy to solve. The only way that I see it is that if the United States looks at it as a vendor financing scheme, as in the sense that it continues to provide the support for the military in NATO, et cetera, and quid pro quo, that means opening agriculture, automotive, et cetera, et cetera, of all of those hyper protected industries in the European Union. The problem, from my perspective of the United States policy, is that it continues to pay for NATO and all the military spending and continues to allow, one by one, each of the US presidents, the European Union, to enter into bigger and bigger and bigger protectionist measures under the disguise of environmental requirements.
Albert
I’ll make this quick, Tony. Europe has a decision. Either they fund their military or fund their social programs. They can’t do both. And if you want to win an elections in Europe, you cannot cut social programs. As simple as that.
Daniel
Okay?
Tony
I hear that. With such a large gray cohort in Europe, can they continue to pay for those social programs? Do they have wage earners who can pay for that? Is there too much of a demographic issue? So is it not one or the other, but is it neither of them? Right?
Albert
Well, the problem is then you start talking about best swap lines and the political aspects of those things keeping Europe afloat. That’s where that comes into.
Ralph
I think that we again have the problem, and I do it too, but I try always to kind of get myself to stop doing it. We talk about Europe in very general terms, but to give you one example, in Sweden, for example, the retirement age is directly tied by law to average life expectancy. So in Sweden, automatically the retirement age goes up if life expectancy goes up. Now, as you see in France right now, it’s absolutely impossible. This is a little bit due to the unpopularity in many areas of Macron, but it’s basically not possible to increase the retirement age from 62 to 64, which is absolutely necessary just to make it somewhat viable. I mean, I would argue that’s a problem all Western nations in a sense have. I mean, at some point because in the United States the whole debt ceiling debate is breaking out again. But at some point Medicaid and Social Security will need one way or another to be reformed because that also cannot go on forever. But Daniel said, I think another very important point, and that always bothers me in these debates both about so called multipolarity and dedolarization, there is this idea that all of this could hypothetically happen and yet nothing would change.
Ralph
It’s mostly Europeans who talk about this. You have Europeans who say other new multipolar world and the dollar will be replaced, but none of this would be great for Europe. In a sense, I’d rather be the European Athens to America’s Rome than to be some province squeezed between the Middle East, the US. And China. That both economically and militarily is not as strong as we might like to be. But as Albert pointed out, we’re also not willing to put the money would have to go in order to be that powerful.
Tony
If you had to put a probability on the latter scenario, do you think that’s probable? Do you think that’s 40% probable that Europe becomes squeezed between China, US and Middle East, given where things are going?
Ralph
Well, I think what we got to increasingly see is the EU will always remain as, “always” I take that back. Will remain as an institution for long because as you all know, institutions and bureaucracies have a tendency to perpetuate themselves. But what we, for example, saw last week when Romania, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Hungary and Poland announced that they going to basically ban all imports of Ukrainian agricultural goods into their countries. This was in direct violation of an authority that was given legally to the European Union. And the EU has a quasi free trade agreement, particularly in the area of agricultural goods, with Ukraine. So what they did was they basically ignored one of the key competences of the European Union and the European Commission. And I think we’re going to see this more often in the future. So the EU will remain in one way or another, but I think there will be certain areas where countries occasionally go it alone. And what we also then, and this is going to depend on the United States, but there are already talks, whether they’re going to be fruitful or not, to something else, whether the United States should refocus, let’s say, more on Poland as their main partner in Europe, whether they should focus more on Central and Eastern European countries.
Ralph
So I think there is something is going on. I cannot yet say what exactly, how it’s going to end, but something is going on in Europe. And this started in 2004 with the expansion towards the east because that was a new kind of countries in many ways good, but definitely different from the Western European Union as it existed. And I think this is increasingly more difficult to keep together.
Tony
So maybe Blinken will adopt a very Rumsfeldian view of old and new Europe.
Albert
Maybe don’t hold your breath on that.
Tony
Guys. Gosh, this has been such an optimistic discussion. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Seriously, this has been really informative. I can’t wait to see what happens over the next week with regard to some of these things, Daniel, especially with your market kind of optimism. So, guys, thank you very much for your time. Have a great weekend and have a great week ahead. Thank you.
In this podcast episode, BFM 89.9 Market Watch speaks with Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, to discuss the current state of the economy and the stock market. Nash predicts that GDP growth will be around 1% this year, which is a downgrade from previous estimates. He suggests that, due to inflation, firms have been passing on their costs to customers, but with lower volumes expected, there will be a focus on efficiency in the latter half of 2024 and into 2025. Nash also notes that there is a lot of excitement in the tech industry surrounding generative AI, which could bring about efficiencies and revenue opportunities for companies. This has resulted in a rally in tech stocks, despite the lower GDP growth estimates. However, Nash acknowledges that it’s difficult to predict how long this rally will last and whether companies’ valuations will come back down to earth eventually.
Regarding the bond market, Nash suggests that it has historically been more accurate in predicting interest rates compared to central bank prognostications. Currently, bonds are indicating that a recession is coming, but Nash believes there is only a slowdown expected, not a full-blown recession. Furthermore, he suggests that the Fed may be late to respond to this slowdown, as central banks are typically reactive organizations. Nash also discusses the recent performance of safe-haven assets such as the yen, gold, and the US dollar, and suggests that this is due to concerns over the Omicron variant and rising inflation.
Overall, Nash predicts that there will be a focus on efficiency and cautious optimism in the stock market in the coming years. He also suggests that it’s important to remain cautious and vigilant in the current economic climate, as there are a number of uncertainties and potential risks.
Transcript:
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The business station.
BFM
BFM 89.9. 7:06 A.m. On Thursday the 30 March. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning. In half an hour, we’re going to discuss whether the worst is over for the Sri Lankan economy after it secured a 3 billion U. S. Dollar bailout last week from the IMF th. But as always, we’re going to kick start the morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.
BFM
It was almost perfect. Almost perfect because almost every market was upset one. So let’s name the guilty one. It was the Shanghai Composite Index, which was down 0.2%, but otherwise us all in the green. The Dow was up 1%, S&P 500 up 1.4%, Nasdaq up 1.8%. In fact, if you look at the Nasdaq, this is the shocking thing, right? I thought tech was dead. Growth is over. Well, it ain’t the case because the Nasdaq is up 14% on a year to date basis, this has been the stellar outperformer. Now, if we look at Asian Nikkei was up 1.3%, Hang Seng up 2.1%. Shanghai, like I said, was the one that was down 0.2%. Singapore Straits Times Index, up 0.2%. And our very own FBMKLCI currently up 0.8% to 1420 points.
BFM
All right, so for some thoughts on what’s moving markets we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Thanks, as always, for joining us. Now, given recent performance in US. Equities, investors seem to be looking beyond the challenges in the financial sector and recognizing that US economic growth continues to be resilient. Could investors be headed for a rude shock, though?
Tony
Well, it’s a really interesting question. I think those investors who expect rapid GDP growth, I think will be disappointed. We expect GDP growth to be kind of around 1% this year. That’s downgraded from a couple of months ago. And so it’s not necessarily overall economic growth that will happen. There will be secural growth. And what we’ll see through the rest of, say, this year and into 2025 is a focus on efficiency. What’s been happening is, because of inflation, firms have been passing on their margins or been passing on their costs and more than their costs to their customers. Okay. And so with a lower volume. So we’re going to see a focus on efficiency in the back half of 2024 and into 2025. So you will see equity performance in pockets. But in general, we’ll likely see things sideways unless we see the Fed change footing dramatically, which is still not really expected.
BFM
Okay, so, Tony, is that pocket the Nasdaq? Because help me understand this. Right? Since December, it’s actually up 20%. And I thought growth is great. What’s going on?
Tony
Well, in tech right now, there’s a lot of excitement over generative AI. This is ChatGPT and the other kind of applications of generative artificial intelligence. And so investors are looking at companies everything from semiconductors to say, Meta and saying gosh generative AI, which is kind of the next milestone for AI, could really change these companies and could really bring about efficiencies and could really bring about these revenue opportunities. So there’s a lot happening in tech, of course, but in general, when you look at companies like Microsoft that has made the major investment in OpenAI and you look at Google and their new AI kind of chat item that’s out there and then other companies. It’s similar to I know you guys are too young to know this, but in 2000, whenever a company would release a website, their stock would get a bump. And so what we’re seeing right now is whenever companies release an offering or say they are implementing some sort of generative artificial intelligence or ChatGPT or something like that, they’re getting a bump in their equity price.
BFM
Okay, but how long can this rally kind of last? There seems to be a disconnect because you just told us GDP is 1% and then companies earnings probably aren’t going to be that great for the moment. Yet markets seem to ignore the news. Will they all come back down to earth eventually?
Tony
Well, it depends on how you define down to earth. Right? Is down to earth 2018 valuations and 2018 market levels maybe. Again, it really depends on how the market views, I think generally, how the market views activities by central banks and the Fed. So if the Fed has really isolated the banking crisis, which I believe they have, then the Fed can continue to raise rates and then they can continue to shrink their balance sheet. Now they just grew their balance sheet by a lot by bailing out banks. But they can shrink their balance sheet in certain areas, say mortgages, those sorts of things. So that can help to bring some of these valuations down to earth. But keep in mind, we’re going into a presidential election year in 2024. And so it’s really hard to determine, does the US administration not want a recession or do they want a terrible recession so they can be seen to be passing a fiscal stimulus plan. So I don’t know what their calculus is. They can either keep the economy steaming ahead or they can try to drive the economy into the recession so they can be seen to be passing massive stimulus packages.
BFM
Tony, in one of your panel commentaries, a suggestion was made that bond markets were more accurate in predicting rates compared to central bank prognostications. Why is that so? And what are they currently saying about future Fed hikes?
Tony
Well, the first thing kind of every amateur loves to be a central bank prognosticator, so those are rarely right. But bonds. So if you look at a year ago, bonds were telling the Fed that they needed to raise rates because inflation was coming and they waited until too late. Right now, bonds are saying that a recession is coming and the Fed is continuing to tighten and the Fed is always late. Central banks are typically always late because they are a reactive organization and that’s how they’re designed to be. Are bonds going to be absolutely right about a recession coming later in the year? I’m not really sure. Again, we think there’s a slowdown, but we don’t necessarily think there’s a recession. And when we use the R word, we also have to be careful because it can be defined any way we want. Right. Because we had two consecutive quarters of negative growth last year and nobody says that we had a recession last year. So a recession kind of is whatever we define it as today.
BFM
Okay, well in the last two, three weeks there’s been clear, three clear safe haven assets: yen, gold, and US dollar. Do you think these three asset classes still can be safe haven assets?
Tony
It’s really hard for the dollar and gold to be safe haven assets at the same time. For the yen, I think with the change of the governor, the chairman of the BOJ, and Japan of course is already doing this, but I think they have to be very careful. That happens in, I think late next month. And so if they can handle that transition in an easy, seamless way, I think we can probably continue to do that. Gold? I’m not entirely sure. I know there are a lot of people out there pumping gold right now, and there are a lot of people kind of naysaying the dollar right now. Trying to say that Saudi signed some agreement. Saudi Arabia signed some agreement to deal in US dollars, and Russia signed Chinese Yuan and Russia signed an agreement to deal in Chinese Yuan or whatever. But those are very small, nominally very small. So I do think the dollar will remain a safe haven in times of turbulence. Japanese yen probably because currencies are all on a relative basis. They’re all on a relative basis. Gold, I don’t think gold is going to fluctuate a lot, but I think gold investors can be very fickle. So I’d be really careful of that one.
BFM
Tony, thanks as always for the chat. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. Commenting there a little bit about the difference in market exuberance in tech sector compared with, I suppose the sentiment that perhaps the US could be heading towards a recession or at least markedly slower growth than what was anticipated early on.
BFM
But I think it’s interesting that Tony brought up the reason why, which is, it’s generative AI, well ChatGPT, right. So much excitement about it and I think questions about is it a disruption or is it an opportunity? But I think markets thinking, hey, which companies are going to get involved in this.
BFM
If you see a company that’s involved in AI, if they have their own AI bot or whatever, oh, that must.
BFM
Be a good thing.
BFM
It reminds me so much of the hype over the Metaverse not that long ago when Facebook or Meta decided to take that angle. And right now, there’s no no one’s talking about the Metaverse metabolism.
BFM
What are you talking about, Charles? Everybody’s forgotten about it. Right. So there are always trends that come and go. Let’s see who really can monetize it. That’s the thing at the end of the day.
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This Week Ahead features a discussion on banking systemic risk versus inflation with Hugh Hendry, Tracy Shuchart, and Albert Marko. The group covers recent events in the banking sector, including Credit Suisse and the potential risks posed to the global economy, the impact of higher interest rates on crude prices, and China’s growing diplomatic role.
To start, Hugh expresses concern over the lack of GDP per capita growth since the Great Financial Crisis and the failure of the remedial work undertaken since then, labeling the current environment as “The Great, Great Depression”. He warns that raising interest rates in this environment could be disastrous and discusses the creation of credit and the muted credit cap, as well as the contraction of the M2 series.
Hugh questions the need for central bankers and believes that the totality of credit creation should be examined. He suggests that the bond market has been more accurate in predicting rates than central banks and he notes that there are persistent trade surplus nations that create surplus capital, which is being invested in the United States, resulting in asset price inflation. He argues that the problem lies in the flow of capital rather than the currency (the US Dollar) itself.
Next, Tracy highlights how rising rates are affecting the prices of commodity cargoes. The discussion digs into the possible impact of falling cargo rates on the supply and pricing of commodities. Meanwhile, the discussion anticipates that the upcoming CPI report could inform the Fed’s expected raise of another 25bps at this month’s meeting. They also discuss the ECB’s recent 50bps raise to offset European inflation.
Finally, Albert leads a discussion about China’s shift from an aggressive “wolf warrior” foreign policy to one of a peace negotiator. The discussion explores the motivations behind China’s recent diplomatic efforts to negotiate a Saudi-Iran agreement and facilitate a Russia-Ukraine peace agreement. They also explore the position and potential level of involvement in these discussions by the United States.
Key themes: 1. Banking systemic risk vs inflation 2. Higher rates & commodity cargoes 3. China: From wolf warrior to peace negotiator?
This is the 57th episode of The Week Ahead, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Week Ahead. My name is Tony Nash. Today we’re joined by Hugh Hendry. I don’t think he needs an introduction, but Hugh is a founder of Eclectical and Macro, as well as being a hotelier in St. Bart’s and a lot of other things. We’ve also got Tracy Shuchart with Hilltower Resource Advisors. And we’ve got Albert Marko. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. So much has happened over the last two weeks in the banking sector and especially over the weekend with Credit Suisse. So looking forward to a lot of this discussion.
We’ve got some key themes today. The first is banking systemic risk versus inflation. As the Fed meets, and as we sort out a lot of these banking backstops, I think there’s a lot of discussion about which is more important right now. I think a lot of it is focusing on banking systemic risk panic, but we’ll talk through that with Hugh. We also want to talk about higher rates and commodity cargo prices. Tracy brought some thoughts about that earlier, I guess, over the weekend. So we want to talk through that today. And then we’ve seen China kind of come forward as kind of a negotiator for the Middle East and Russia, Ukraine and other things. And I want to talk to Albert about kind of how real is that, how much of a good faith negotiator is China in those areas?
So, Hugh, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. Hasn’t been easy to get you, and we’re really glad to have you. So we really appreciate having you here. Great. So first off, banking systemic risk versus inflation. Everybody knows the Silicon Valley Bank and First Republic and the BTFP stuff here in the US. All the Credit Suisse and UBS stuff happened over the weekend. What are you watching there? Like, what’s your biggest worry? Is it these 81 bonds? What are you focused on there?
Hugh
Well, I have been focused for some time. My focus has been this impending car crash, which is now becoming more apparent perhaps to the many. And my concern had been Fed by my observation, my belief that we’ve been operating in a silent form of depression ever since the remedial work undertaken since the great financial crisis. Let’s date that to March 2009. It has been a spectacular failure. I will share with you a chart. Maybe we’ll be looking at it now. And it comes from who does it come from? I want to say I always get these names mixed up. Michael Klein. I think the wonderful economist academic works of Michael Barr, doesn’t work with Michael Pettis, but collaborated on trade wars, of political class wars. And he shows the indexing of US GDP per capita from the starting point of the Great Depression. And likewise, he superimposes a similar series for now, if you will, from that March 2009 and over the period spanning to almost 15 years us. Per capita GDP in the Great Depression went from 100 to almost 190. And this time around we’ve gone from 100 to 115. So I said silent.
We should call it the Great Great Depression that no one is allowed to speak of. We went through the pandemic environment to realize that there are some terms where there’s almost a censorship and it would seem that in US financial literature the word depression has been assigned to the past and not to the present. So raising interest rates in a Great Depression has filled me with dread and I think that is what has come to light in the last ten days or so.
Tony
So when we look at the amount of credit that’s been created since the financial crisis and kind of the payoff in terms of GDP per capita, is that one of the variables that concerns you most? I know it’s everything and I think we’re all looking at everything, but it seems to me that the payoff for every dollar of debt incurred by the government and by individuals is rapidly kind of falling down.
Hugh
Yeah, I would say that the credit cap has been muted. And again, I make a distinction between sovereign dollar creation and by that I mean the dollar creation from onshore domestic US banks entering into new loan agreements and if you will, printing dollars versus the dollar creation. I would call it non sovereign, which is the Euro dollar which is taking place offshore and where with the ability to provide collateral, new dollars will be created. Now, the Fed I believe, is less interested in the latter and I believe over the last 40 years the latter, these non sovereign dollar creation have come to be really much greater than the sovereign onshore and the credit provision there has been really to fund assets and it’s funded asset price inflation. And I think market participants have been very aware that that credit spigot got turned off, let’s say 18 months ago very dramatically. So I would say it’s been contracting. And now we’re seeing I don’t like discussing the M two series because I think it takes away from this non sovereign creation, but we’re seeing that the onshore M Two series is now contracting as well. We don’t have much per capita GDP augmentation to show for for that.
Tony
Right. So so wouldn’t, after all of the creation of money in and I would say through, largely through government spending and obviously Fed balance sheet in 2000 and 22,021, isn’t this kind of a normal reaction, kind of a normal medium term reaction to that much creation and distribution of money into economies?
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Hugh
Well, again, it’s kind of crossing my arms. It’s a funny money conversation.
I keep saying, I go to Starbucks and ask for a caffeine latte, and I promise to pay it in bank reserves, and they kick me out. The Silicon Valley Bank was acutely sensitive because their corporate customers are startup businesses, which are very much at the riskier end of the spectrum. And typically that bank would be funding between the last six to three months. Your cash is disappointing. You need another fundraise.
But the bank steps in and it holds you over. There was no prospect of more fundraising, so it was kind of exaggerated. But I think with the other banks, what you’re seeing is that and with Silicon, you were seeing that their assumptions with regard to operating cash flow from their client, from their clients, just was not being met. That actually the economy is weaker. That we’ve we’ve, again, within this kind of silent depression, we’ve imposed I mean, I don’t dispute we’ve imposed structurally higher prices, but without again, without the legacy of a dynamic of credit creation, which left, like, a really strong economy, which was to be tamed and to be tempered by the Federal Reserve’s oversight. To my mind, it’s been a muted economy for the real folk. If we move a kilometer or so outside the financial centers of the world, the real world just seems rather grim. And that real world is being hammered by higher rates. And again, with the prevalence of debt, I keep saying, if debt was one X GDP in the so we’re taking out decimal points, then I’d say we’re four X today. And so the Fed at 5% rates is really the Fed at 20% rates in the 70s.
If I can get away with that kind of leap and you break things and we’re breaking things, that’s been my concern. My concern is, I believe, that the depression has been fueled by Bernanke. Back in was it 2013 when we had the taper tantrum, where he encouraged the private sector to raise rates on his behalf? We had seven and a half percent adult unemployment. He was saying, Heavens, I’m beginning to worry that the economy is getting overcooked. The market doubled ten year rates. You know what? The economy hit a wall. Then we had John Yellen, tentatively, in 2015, trying to raise rates again. Why? There was never this economy which was running away. And then you had Jay, and Jay is just being determined from his first day in office to kind of be some kind of volcker guy, what was it called? The Duke of York. He marched them up to the top in 2018 and promptly had to take them down and then he came back again and finally I think I feel like particularly the American economy has been crucified on the cross of Jay’s miscommunication. During the pandemic, he explicitly said on daytime television that they were printing money.
I get why he said it. He was saying it to alleviate the real fear of that time. But it was I mean, I’m going to say it, it was a lie. And so he now owns the price, I would say. Is it causality? Is it something I don’t think the inflation that we saw is monetary. I say it was a supply side thing. I think it will abate because the monetary power will not be there to perpetuate it. But Jay couldn’t escape that. He was the guy who said I’m printing money and then you had an explosion in prices. And so they’re fighting desperately to kind of preserve or reign back their reputation. But it’s the economy and these banks and other actors which are feeling that.
Tony
Yeah, I guess so if the Fed is kind of trying to bring back in their reputation I know this seems a little bit random, but who has a better reputation? Like all central banks have terrible reputations right now. No. So are they in fact the best of the major central banks or are there other people that are more credible? ECB raised 50 basis points last meeting. So is that a credible trajectory?
Hugh
There’s only one thing we know for certain that the ECB will raise rates at the wrong time.
And again, it’s like the pushback I also have is just tell me the last time any central bank made a glorious decision, you thought, gee, these guys, they got it, they got it. Maybe it was 1994 and there was a kind of preemptive hike by Greenspan maybe, but 1994 is a long time ago. So in terms of do we need central bankers? Given I mean the American central bank is the regulator of the onshore banking sector and I maintain that we should be investigating and spending a close amount of money to examine the totality of dollar creation, credit creation because I believe it’s tremendously larger outside the review of the central bank. And then finally, who does it better? Well, the inversion of the treasury curves, not just the US treasury, but it’s a global phenomenon. If you’ve seen what the German curve has been doing, especially the last really if following that huge eruption in the UK pension market when we had the fake budget or whatever, when you have an inversion, it is not the bond market telling you it’s best guess of where rates will be. They create the inversion via a desire to hedge against the expectation of negative consequences like unforeseen consequences of Federal Reserve tightening in a world of tepid demand.
And in a world of great leverage, the bond market has been spot on. Those inversions are at record levels. And again, we are seeing a record form of banks going wrong and needing record forms of financial intermediation from the central bank to fix it.
Tony
Right. So it’s interesting when you say do we need central banks? I know that’s a hypothetical question, but especially over the past week and a half, as we’ve seen the Fed come in to backstop bank runs, that’s precisely the reason why central banks were created. Is that right?
So they kind of are with this BTFD, they’re kind of doing what they were created to do. And I guess with the Swiss central bank, what they did over the weekend, they’re kind of doing what they were created to do. Although nobody loves the fact the kind of bank bailout discussion nobody loves that, but they’re kind of doing in the purest form what central banks were created to do. Is that a fair categorization.
Hugh
At the tail end of the process? Yes. I don’t dispute what they’re doing. I wouldn’t ask them not to do it. Right. But I feel that especially this time around, they are the malignant force that is causing the failure in the host banks. I mean, Credit Suisse credit Suisse has been a problem that should have been addressed at least a year ago. Oh, yeah.
Tony
It surprises nobody. I mean, the fact that anybody’s surprised is surprising.
Hugh
And there’s no bailout. Even if you bought the equity on Friday, I think you lost 60%. The equity lost just about everything. And of course, that spread into one of the tiers of the kind of quasi debt debt structure. So again, we accept that. The wider question is just why is it happening and why is it caught out the central banks? There’s no dispute that the central banks are responding. And I don’t take huge exception to how they’re responding. I take exception to the fact that they’ve been the custodians of a if you were to accumulate the myths in potential GDP you know this, Tony, that in the 30 years up to 2007, most kind of g seven. Economies outside the phenomenon of China were kind of compounding like 2.7%. And it’s been more like one and a half in those years since then. So the miss is now the equivalent of the entirety of the Chinese economy. It’s a big mess. I think it stems from a change in the risk seeking behavior of the horse bank supporting the euro dollar system. They had a near death experience and they’ve been regulated to bring it down.
Okay. And secondly, it’s been periodic preemptive hiking by the central bank, maybe with a noble cause, but actually ending up doing wrong. Those those two functions. I actually believe at the end of this, I think we’re I think the generational time clock where you get profound, you know, like ray Dalio talks about these things, you know, 75 years. He has different clocks, and they all have like, a variation of 25 years, give or take. But we’re in one of those variations in terms of where we look at the underlying monetary system. We had a gold standard. It failed. Great Depression. People talk about bread and woods. I think bread and woods was a kind of in between. It didn’t really work. Private banks went, this doesn’t work. Let’s work it to our ends. And I think that Eurodollar system from was it NatWest Bank in London in 1956 or something, I think that system is near its death as well. I think we’re getting to the point where we’ll have to invent a better way now that’s not to kind of come back and see the dollar is doomed. It’s actually that the system that America accepts is really no longer doing it.
It’s not an unfair advantage. It’s the opposite. You have to really question why they support it. What do I mean by that? Why they support being the recipient of the world’s surplus capital inflows? Why are the world’s capital inflows going into the US. Where they have absolutely no desire for investment beyond the domestic pool of savings? Okay? And so the result of that is we get profound asset price inflation. We turn an economy famed for its entrepreneurial ship, and we turn it into an economy of speculation. That speculation is being unwound with the advent of GDP. When debt accumulates or debt to GDP rises, then you end up there’s a danger that you’re overstating the current GDP at the expense of future GDP. And as you overstate growth, you kind of create a fictional wealth in terms of the price of property, the price of price of stock market, the price of private equity. And it’s not done through kind of sinister means. It’s a miscalculation. And the US. Now, for the last heavens, the last 25 years, we’ve had, what, three or four events within 25 years that in a normal distribution, if there is such a thing, you’d expect these things to be spread out over 70.
We got four events that you would expect to kind of come to bear over maybe 100 and 5200 years. And yet we’ve seen it within 25. It’s no longer doing the US. Any favors. And so I think ultimately the US. Will have to look to perhaps mimic China and say and put up barriers whereby you cannot be the recipient of all these surplus capital flows. I think there would be a better place for that, but that’s perhaps for another time.
Tony
That’s really interesting.
Albert
I’d like Tony. I don’t want to be the one to defend central bankers, by all means, but how much of it is political influence for central bankers to combat supply side inflation? I mean, voters in each of these countries are facing 2020 5% inflation on goods and services and the way I look at it is those politicians need to get reelected. And for them to push back on the central banks to try to do something to combat inflation is the way that I would work it.
Hugh
I agree. It’s an agency to my mind, this is an agency problem and not an economics problem. I mean, it’s creating an economics problem, but it’s the agency of government. It’s the government being the principal and turning to its agent, the Federal Reserve, and saying, you guys messed up and messing up. You affect me, okay? And if you affect me, I’m really going to affect you. So do something about it. It’s mafioza. But my point is this is not an economics problem. Inflation I was saying she was going to have all my tombstone. Inflation is a monetary phenomenon, okay?
Tony
Many tombstones, not just yours. Yeah. So, Albert, what you brought up about the euro dollar kind of out kind of outlasting its use. What are your thoughts on that? I know you know the euro dollar inside and out. Can you talk us through your view on that?
Albert
The problem that I have with that argument is there’s just no alternative at the moment. And I understand what she was talking about is, yeah, maybe we should look at a different alternative. And I think I was on this podcast maybe two weeks ago where saying that theoretically the Anglo sphere could come up with a digital currency founded by the dollar and whatnot to come up with a new system. But these are all theoretical policies that I don’t know how would they work. I don’t know what it would do to the economies, how things would even transpire at that point. There’s a lot of unknowns, in my opinion. But I don’t think that the euro dollar I don’t think even Hugh believes that the euro dollar is in any danger of going away in the foreseeable future.
Tony
Right now, the Euro, if we go back 20 some years, the Euro was supposed to kind of be that offshore mechanism, but it never really worked that way. Partly because the Dutch and the German.
Albert
Different national interests tony the different national interests, different financial policies, different political interests. It just doesn’t work right.
Hugh
But it’s also tony but it’s this point that Europe is founded still upon the rock of Germany, Holland, et cetera. And these are persistent trade surplus nations that create surplus capital, and that surplus capital is invested in the United States. The housing crash of 2007, 2008, the majority of mortgage credit was provided by European banks, not American banks. So again, Europe and China, Asia are less open to the flow of capital than principally the US. And the United Kingdom. I don’t believe to Alba’s point, that we have to invent a new currency. I don’t believe it has to be digital or physical or, God forbid, commodity. There just has to be a greater regulation in the conduct and behavior of trading blocks with regard to each other.
Albert
I agree. There’s a problem where Yellen is the one she’s done this before in 2013, where she drives up US. Dollar policy and hoping that capital comes back into the United States to keep asset prices elevated just purely for her own labor ideas and political leanings. So that’s something like for me, if you don’t put any controls to stop yelling and others from doing this, they’re going to just keep doing it over and over again. We’re going to be stuck in a doom loop of capital flows coming into the United States.
Tony
Okay, but that’s interesting. What you said, Albert and Hewitt, you said about almost trade flow. So it’s the flow that is the problem. It’s not necessarily the currency is that my point.
Hugh
And again, there are achievable. Here we are, and we want to talk about Greta’s recent Silicon Valley, but it’s buried so deeply the underlying problem, which has been with us for at least 25 years. I want to say that the last time the kind of Charles Kindleberger handbook to a currency crisis actually worked out with the great logic of his orthodoxy, where you could monetize it was the Thai bat. And since then and what was the change, because it was the specter of China et al. Seeing the vulnerability to those Asian currencies from being so open and so those bolt fast to being effectively closed or very much controlling the money coming in. So in return, the US. Has had profound asset price inflation. Now, if you wanted to discourage that, you could put a withholding tax on treasury holdings by central banks, by foreign central bank. They already have it at custody with the New York Fed. And and I don’t believe that these institutions are like hedge funds, that they are profit seeking. They are working to a political goal and they will pay it. And if you squeeze it enough, you may actually discourage them, but at least you could impose a rent on their behavior and the disturbances that that behavior is, as we see the disturbances today, play out again.
Tony
Okay, very interesting. Okay, so we’ve gone into kind of the core of the problem. But if we go very short term because we have a Fed meeting coming up, everyone’s nervous about the systemic banking crisis or inflation, what do you think takes the priority in the next Fed meeting? Do you think the Fed stays on its trajectory? And all you guys, Tracy, Albert, Hugh, what are you guys views on this? Do you think the Fed says, hey, this banking thing scared us. We’re going to stamp pad on zero for a meeting and then we’re going to see what happens? Or do you think they proceed with 25s as they’ve been talking about and saying, hey, we put the backstop up. The Swiss central bank came in and put their backstop up. All is good with the banking crisis. Nothing to see here. We’re going to keep fighting inflation. What scenarios do you see them coming through again with a very short term mindset.
Hugh
Or Tracy, forgive me, Tracy, we haven’t heard from you. Why don’t you contribute?
Tracy
That’s fine. I hate having an opinion. Because everybody has an opinion.
Tony
Yes, that’s why you’re here.
Tracy
Everybody’s talking. I would think they stay at 25. That said, I think that if they decided to hold, that would be great news for commodities, and the commodity markets would react very positively towards that. But I think that they’re going to stay with the 25 because they’re going to say everything’s contained, just like we’ve heard a million times before. But we’ll see.
Tony
I remember in 2007, at the beginning of the financial crisis, the early indication said, it’s a 200 billion dollar loss. We’ve got it contained. Nobody talks about this today, but it’s $200 billion. Don’t worry about it. It’s all fine. We’ve got it contained. Is it possible that we’re in one of those scenarios now where 2007, $200 billion, it’s all fine, and we just kind of keep kind of raising into this when there’s a bigger specter living out there, or do you think it’s done? Tracy?
Tracy
I feel like this is not a repeat of 2008. I think it’s completely different. So I don’t want to equate it with 2008 exactly, but I feel like the rhetoric is kind of the same where everything’s contained. It’s okay. We took care of it.
Tony
Yes. Okay. Very good. Albert, what’s your view on the next Fed meeting?
Albert
You think they’re going to do 25? I don’t know what they’re going to do, but I think they should do 25. Going to zero. Pausing is, I think, a bad sign for the market. I mean, it might be bullish for a few days, but realistically, it’s not going to help solve anything to do with inflation, specifically supercore, which is what I think the Fed is. Powell has said himself is what he’s been watching, and its trajectory is going up. So I think they have to stay the course and do 25. That said, they could do zero just because this banking issue has gotten, at least in the press, out of hand, with a lot of bazookas being sent out by central banks to squash it. So we’ll see. But I hope they do 25.
Tony
So if they do zero, do you think it indirectly confirms everyone to worst fear? It’s like, oh, my gosh, they did zero.
Tracy
It must be worth really bad.
Albert
Yeah. Narrative wise, that’s exactly what I would be thinking. It’s like, what’s going on? Why are they overreacting like this? So that’s exactly what I think the sentiment would be. Definitely negative over the long run.
Tony
Right, Hugh?
Hugh
You’re all blinking crazy. May I remind you, for the last 15 years, the growth in per capita GDP for the average American has been catastrophic. It’s been one 6th that experienced during the Great Depression. And we’re talking about the Fed hiking rates further. I recall my trading experience, Tony, you mentioned 2007, and I always sat on big dumb leverage positions and we had northern rock go under. We had some French banks kind of have closures, but it was still modest. It wasn’t really what we’ve seen of late. And the Fed cut rate and the S and P was like pretty much at his all time high. And they won’t do anything. They’ll talk about it. They’ll express concern, boom, cut interest rates. The question is, is that an old Fed? And that may be relevant in the sense that I think the Fed should have been cutting rates six months ago. I think that the sovereign curves have been telling you that. But they’re kind of trapped again to the agency point and to the assumption, as Tracy said, hey, if they hold, can you imagine they cut, your commodities would be off to the stars and risk assets would explode.
And I think the Fed is very conscious of that. And so a Fed that should be, I think, should be cutting. Can I just say, banks have discovered that they have funding deficits. These regional banks, they’re not money center banks. They don’t have colossal sums of other instruments that they can sell off to meet liquidity needs. They have illiquid pools of mortgages to corporate America. And what you can do with that is you can package them like a CDO, these illiquid tranches, and you can offer it to the big money center banks and they’ll give you Treasuries. And then with the treasury, you into the eurodollar system and then they’ll address your funding. Now, the funding is coming I believe the funding is coming from the inflation in that everything is 15% or more expensive, but the underlying business health and revenue isn’t there. And so the corporate customers are their cash balances are coming down and down and down, creating the deficit which these banks can’t fund. Like I say, we’re in a depression. And the preoccupation is how far will the Feds raise rates? It’s going to get worse. The economic fallout, the consequences of this, like finding you remember, we have what percentage of the economy is the Frankenstein businesses that were supported by the fact that the carry was so low?
How much of the economy is the conceitful economy, which hasn’t marked the market, is I am full of angst.
Tony
But are we here partly because interest rates were kept so low for so long? I mean, that was really on some level, what was behind Silicon Valley Bank is they were holding this debt that was so far underneath the market that they couldn’t keep up with their cash needs. So is that part of the problem? If they cut rates, it puts us back into that environment?
Hugh
Yeah, that is the problem. But the deeper problem again, is beg of thy neighbor policy. We’re. Missing, like I say, $15 trillion of global economic demand. And I think that’s because China et al, pures a policy of making things cheap and keeping its current. Imagine if where are we on the remembri? We’re six.
Tony
Nine.
Hugh
Yeah. Seven. Eight. They call it seven. It was at nine when we created NAFTA many years ago. So nine to seven in terms of appreciation, the damn thing should be at four. The Chinese should be the citizens in the household sector should be really rich, they should be buying tons of overseas products and we wouldn’t have that deficit. But again, owing to the Thai pad episode and how we’ve organized trade flows, that hasn’t happened. And so, again, that’s why the per capita GDP for the ordinary folk in the States has barely budged, which is why we’ve had to keep rates on life support. But of course, the consequence is you blow up asset prices and trying to get the two balance between the two. I don’t envy anyone that decision.
Tony
No, it’s painful. And as we see housing prices come down to earth, if that happens here in the States, that’s where most people’s wealth is based. Right. So if their portfolio is coming down a bit, if their house price is coming down a bit, there are a lot of delicate balances, delicate, say, household balances, that will be upset here in the States, if not globally. So I think you have a great point. I think it’s a really difficult dilemma. I hear people all the time talk about how dumb the guys of the Fed are. They’re not stupid people. I don’t think they’re stupid people. I think they understand the problem. I think it’s a very complex issue that they have to get out of.
Hugh
Right. Yeah. Can we ask Tracy? But on oil, why is oil so weaker? And where that huge surplus has come and it’s changed the shape of the curve, there’s no demand for it. Can you speak to that?
Tracy
Yeah. I think part of the problem is a lot of Russian oil is still on the market that most were anticipating. It not be. We are seeing China demand come back, but not as fast and furious as everybody had anticipated, and still kind of very soft, even though mobility data has improved significantly. Still, their demand for oil is because they were stocking it for a year in their surplus. So they have a lot of surplus. So obviously they’re going to drain that first, while oil prices are high and making deals with Russia for cheap oil. And the other part of it is that interest rates are high, and that is because when you’re talking natural resources, they’re particularly exposed to rising rates, right. Because trading houses rely on bank credit to buy, transport and store these commodities. So with higher rates, what is happening is these companies are either having to sell right away at any price because they can’t hold it like they used to and wait for a better time to sell when the price was higher or the opportunity was better. So they’re having to sell it right away for whatever price that means, which is also causing downward pressure on prices right now, realistically speaking and hearing from some of the big trading houses that they’re having to forego some trades.
Tracy
Right. And so that’s stranding product with the producers. So I think that’s why we’re seeing weaker commodity prices pretty much overall.
Hugh
Do you have data on the driving statistics in the continent of North America?
Tracy
Yes, I do.
Hugh
Am I making it up to say that here we are, so many years after the pandemic when we know that everyone was kept at home and that the mileage is not really changed much?
Tracy
It really depends on the area, I think. Right. So we’re kind of still seeing more limited in, say, some of the blue states where you’re seeing a lot of uptake in some of the red states. Obviously, in the south there’s a lot more mobility, or the mobility data is a lot better. If we go and we look at TSA, I mean, TSA, we’ve been wobbling, like just above 2019, just dipping just below and then just above. So that data is still pretty strong. So that looks good. But mobility data is very regional in the United States.
Hugh
And I guess with anyone shouting at the screen saying it’s the adoption of Teslas and electrical vehicles, I hear you. But the whole notion of this curse of inflation, that it doesn’t persist, or a sign that it’s unlikely to persist, is when you see changes in economic behavior where you have discretion. You cut back because you just don’t. Have the financial wherewithal to support a wallet which your wallet is not 15% higher. But the price of goods and services are 15% higher. And so maybe driving would be discretion in that sense. Anyway, thank you for that.
Albert
Yeah. On top of that, I’ve talked a lot about Spr releases timed with the Fed selling oil futures to bring down the price of oil in their mind to help combat inflation. I mean, that’s something that’s happening.
Tony
Happened.
Albert
Last year for a little while. And I know that they’ve been doing it again this year. And, I mean, I heard through the grapevine that it was up to $800 million worth.
Hugh
Really? So, Tracy, I thought that had come to an end. The biden policy of selling the reserves, the oil reserves.
Tracy
We have the last little bit sold in December of 22, and that was from that 180,000,000 barrel release that was released throughout the year. There’s about 26 million barrels to release this year. That was scheduled back in 2015. That’s part of a whole different deal. It was part of the upgrading of the Spr, paying for the upgrades of the Spr. So that release will still happen. The thing is, traders were looking at at these prices the government was going to rebuy. Right? And so they did hold an auction on in January and they didn’t get any offers. They didn’t get any bids so they decided not to do that. And people are definitely looking at prices this low because really their target area was $68 to $72. So at these prices they were looking for the government but it looks like that’s just not going to happen because I think they are very happy with prices this low and they know if they start reflecting the spr that’s going to raise prices.
Tony
Okay great, thanks for that and Tracy, I appreciate the cargoes or the pricing and the urgency of the finance of commodity sales. How long do you expect that to last? Do you expect that to continue to last for the next couple of months or is that something that we’re just kind of in this period where things are changing really fast and it’s a relatively temporary issue?
Tracy
Yeah, I think it’s a relatively temporary issue. I think really what we’re going to I still think we need a few more months to really see what Russian oil is or is not off the market. And by the way that is getting very difficult to track these days because they have their own fleets and you have a whole gray market there. But from whatever Sts satellite information that those people gather they are seeing a lot of product build up on water that’s not going to be able to be sold because February 5 is when that policy enacted with the ban on products. So I think we still need a few more months to see where that goes. I still think we need a few more months and I’ve said this for months now when China started to reopen I said I think this is not going to be like it’s going to cause commodities to skyrocket. I think it’s going to be very bumpy. I think particularly the property sector is still a mess. They’re not building anything there’s not really creating a lot of stimulus right now and they have a lot of oil stored.
Tracy
So I think they’ll need to kind of work through those issues a little bit before we really see China demand take off. Maybe an H, two of the share if the whole world is not in a global depression.
Tony
Yeah I remember a few months ago I remember a few months ago talking about that when China was kind of supposed to open in Q One and there were a lot of cheerleaders saying it’s going to be a rocket ship, it’s going to take off really quickly. And I think what we talked about here was it’ll be slower than most people think and that’s come to pass right?
Albert
Yeah they’re pragmatic, they staggered their reopening. They’re making moves for the next six to twelve months on commodities. Which leads me into my section today is what they’ve done in the Middle East with brokering a deal between Iran and the Saudis. I mean, this is specifically done because the Chinese are the biggest clients of both parties. So you’re going to have to appease your biggest client and come up with some sort of truce. But it’s a short lived truce. As the Russians, the Iranians and Saudis start competing for more Chinese market share, since they are the biggest buyers on the Earth at the moment, tensions will inevitably come back up. They’ll bubble up again and this truce just doesn’t have any legs to it.
Tony
The most surprising part to me is that China just a few months ago was still under this kind of wolf warrior diplomacy kind of theme, right? Very aggressive, very direct, very unlike what I’d seen in China for decades before. And now they’ve changed really quickly to this dove policy of we’re going to negotiate peace in the Middle East, we’re going to negotiate peace between Russia and Ukraine. What happened there? Why is it just easier to sell stuff in a peaceful environment than it is in war environment? Or what is it? Because they’ve been the biggest buyer of tiny crude for a while, so that’s.
Albert
Not necessarily it’s mainly to do. The United States is leaving vacuum, their newest foreign policy, leaving vacuum in the Middle East. They’ve just basically abandoned it. We abandoned Afghanistan, we’ve pretty much abandoned Africa at the moment. And the Middle East is we’re not visible at the moment. So inevitably people like China and Russia are going to sit there and go and fill the vacuum. And it’s very easy for them to leverage their purchasing power on Iran and the Saudis and say, hey, cut a deal between you two so we can keep these trade deals going. Now I think also the Saudis are leveraging their oil reserves versus the United States and say, hey, if you don’t become a little bit more friendly with us in the defense sector and start pushing back on the Iranian nuclear aspirations, we’re going to cut deals with China. And I mean, I would do the same thing, to be honest with you.
Tony
So why this may sound like a stupid question, but why doesn’t the US come alongside these discussions and say, hey, it’s peace, let’s negotiate. Let’s get involved with this and support it? Why would the US. Not do that?
Albert
Well, it’s much more complex to say, let’s just have peace. I mean, the Iranians and the Saudis absolutely despise each other. The Israelis are also a major lobbying group in the United States. They certainly don’t want to see Iran benefit financially over this and push that right into their nuclear program. So there’s a lot of moving parts at the moment. And specifically when you talked about Russia and the Ukraine brokering peace there, the reality is the Russians are not going to leave their annexed areas and the Ukrainians are not going to accept that at best, you can get to a status quo, as we were a few years ago. But in terms of peace deals, it’s just not realistic.
Tony
But over the weekend, didn’t the White House come out and say, ukraine is a sovereign nation, but basically we won’t let them negotiate a peace deal with Russia right now? There was something like that that came out over the weekend. So how can the White House supposedly recognize Ukraine as a sovereign nation, but also not allow Ukraine to negotiate a peace deal? That doesn’t really make sense.
Albert
Ukraine’s defense is completely based on US. Armaments at the moment. So of course they can use that as leverage. And, I mean, the United States loves specifically the Biden administration loves to have Putin as a scapegoat for inflation. The moment the Russians marched in there, the term Putin price hikes came out and all over the news. It’s just one of those things where politics has reared its ugly head trying to influence economics. And here we are.
Tony
Great. Okay, so let’s take a quick look at what we expect, say, this week or the week ahead. What are you guys looking for? Tracy, we’ve seen crude way down over the past two sessions. What do you expect to happen in energy? Is this likely to continue with crude continuing downward, or is this very temporary?
Tracy
I think it is a temporary move. I mean, if you look at this, even though we have some softer demand, we are heading into higher demand season. Right. And so, again, there’s a lot of recession fears right now, too.
Tony
Right.
Tracy
So that reared its ugly head again, because of all of the banking crisis. And you also had a lot of what we saw, too, is when US treasuries spiked, right? Because everybody was short spiked. There were a lot of margin calls. And so it was kind of sell what you have to. Oil been sideways for three months, and so sell what you have to. And so I think that was part of that initial push down just from the price action, because we’ve seen that before. But I think it’s going to take a couple of months to digest all of this, to see where we’re at. Let’s see what the Fed does decide to do. Again, if the Fed decides to do nothing, commodities would love that, right? Yeah, they could.
Tony
Love it. Everyone would love it.
Hugh
I’m not sure I’d love it. I’m not sure I’d love it. And I’m not sure commodities would fly. When you say the Fed does nothing, the Fed sits at 5% rates. Or if we’re in the 1970s, the Fed sits there content with rates at 20%. I think oil has done something extraordinary. I mean, from the high tick with the Ukrainian invasion. I mean, oil the oil price is halved. I mean, oil is trading at levels prevailing 2004. That’s extraordinary. And it speaks more, I think, again, to my notion of this silent depression, an aggressive tightening of policy which is appropriate for asset price inflation, but is sheer misery for the ordinary folk.
Albert
I’m actually looking for a 25 basis point rate hike just to agitate you. But I agree with actually, I agree with you. I think that the Fed needs to actually cut rates if you want to see commodities start going these sky high parabolic moves again. And I don’t think we’re close to that at the moment. I do think that a pause would push commodity prices up, but I don’t think it would go parabolic like it did before.
Tracy
Oh, yeah, definitely it would be parabolic.
Albert
Yeah.
Hugh
Of course, if I was to talk my book, I want the Fed I want them being ECB. Like, I have to be cautious of how I say this because I don’t want them doing malevolent things to ordinary folk. But if I was to top my book, I’m really very enamored, very long of the very long end of the treasury curve. Because, again, to repeat myself, broken record depression in terms of price, if we ignore the Carry On Treasuries, which is, again, you could say fanciful, but we’ve wiped out 20 years of price performance, which is to say you’ve had profound mean reversion. And so I do like mean reversion events in terms of global asset. I don’t like mean reversion for individual stocks or individual kind of eclectic risk positions. But the generic give me something trading at the 20 years. So to my mind, where the treasury bond trades, where the inversions are trading, is that most likely we have for the curves to be correct? They’re really imagining a situation where the Fed could rapidly unwind like it did from September 2007 from five and a quarters to terminal of zero. Not a terminal five and a half, six or terminal of zero.
Hugh
And so you’ve got to think, how do you get to a terminal of zero? Well, you get there by inflicting, again, just a colossal deadweight cost of economic pain on the economy. So you can conspire how that would come about from this intellectual reputation or agency trap where they’re just forced to continue with hiking.
Tony
Yes. Over the next week. What are you looking at here? What are you looking in the very short term? What are you paying attention to in the very short term?
Hugh
You don’t want to know.
Tony
Oh, I do.
Hugh
My insights for these markets come from not watching them a great deal. I mean, I’m heading to the most outrageous party in Paris on Wednesday, thursday night. I’ll restock maybe Monday on the West Coast, next week in the US, and we’ll see what’s happened. If I had to guess, I’d expect there’s a huge desire to buy the markets here. The fed’s done something. We’ve even resolved the long standing corpse of Credit Suisse. You look at the equity market, it’s not really indicative of any great danger. The commodities. I mean, yes, I was talking about oil, but the commodity complex, it’s not kind of signaling any profound falling off a cliff. There’s just been a profound revision, I think, coming from hedging activities at the very short end of the treasury curve. Even the long end of treasury curve, it’s not really done anything. So the notion, I think and I was speaking to friends who manage risk, and they’re all agitating, and we were looking at banks. If you look at Irish listed banking securities, they’re way above where they were trading september, October last year. They’ve had a pullback for certain, but they don’t look whole.
Hugh
So I think the presumption is still going to be to feed and come back and try and chase a rally higher. That would be my guess.
Tony
Very good, guys. Thank you so much. This has been a fantastic discussion. Hugh, I’m glad we can keep up with you. Really good kind of long term views, and I really appreciate your perspective. Tracy, Albert, as always, thank you so much for your time, guys. Really appreciate it. Have a great weekend. And you have a great time at that party in there, right?
In this BFM 89.9 podcast, CEO of Complete Intelligence, Tony Nash, discusses the February US equities market and gives his predictions for March. Nash predicts another down month for US markets, albeit not as much as February, with China also being down markedly. He also expects Malaysia to do well and increase by about 1%. Nash also comments on US earnings season, stating that the quality of earnings reported so far is not great and that only $0.88 was matched by cash flows for every dollar of profit, with some companies passing along price hikes successfully but for how long can they keep it up. Nash also discusses interest rates and a more hawkish Fed, which could lead to the dollar rising. He also comments on a newly formed House committee aimed at examining economic competition between the US and China.
Transcript
BFM: BFM 89.9. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run at 7:07 on Thursday the 2nd of March. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Chong Tjen San and Wong Shou Ning. Now, in half an hour, we’re going to discuss Malaysia’s bilateral ties with the Philippines in light of our Prime Minister currently on a visit there. But as always, we’re going to kick-start this morning with a recap on how global markets closed.
Overnight, US markets were mixed. The Dow was up marginally by 0.2%, the S&P 500 down 0.5%, NASDAQ down 0.7%. Asian markets were also mixed. The Nikkei was up by 0.3%, Hang Seng popped it up and was up by 4.2%, Shanghai Composite up by 1%, Straits Times Index down by 0.2% and the FBMKLCI was down by 0.3%.
It’s everywhere.
That’s right. Well, we’re going to try and kind of peel some trends with Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Let’s review what happened back in February. It wasn’t such a great month for US equities. We did see the Dow and SP 500 both lose 4% and 2.6%, respectively. Where do you see the stock market heading in March? Is it going to be more volatility or perhaps brighter skies on the horizon?
Tony: Oh, yeah, it’s going to be pretty choppy. Generally, we expect US markets to have a down month, not down as much as it had been in Feb, but we do expect another down month. Obviously, if the Fed comes in with a very hawkish meeting, then we could see more chop there. We do expect China to be down this month as well. That kind of goes against what we’ve seen in News early this month, but we are seeing China down markedly, say more than 2% this month as well. Good news is we expect Birth of Malaysia to be up about 1%. So while we see chop in others, we may see Malaysia do squeak out a good positive month.
BFM: And Tony, as the US earnings season starts to taper off, what is your assessment of the results that have been released so far? In particular, the most cyclical consumer-facing companies?
Tony: Yes, so the quality of earnings reported so far is not great. So for every dollar of profits, only about $0.88 was matched by cash flows. That’s the largest discrepancy since at least 1990. So that means 12% are from kind of non-cash earnings. So it’s really accounting and other things. So what we’re seeing, especially on the consumer side, is some companies are passing along price hikes, and we see some of them doing that really successfully. I think we’ve talked about that here before, where they’ll hike between eight and say 15% and their sales volume will be down maybe 5%, something like that. That’s really helped the top line and margin expansion. But the real question is for how long can they keep raising those prices and kind of sacrificing transaction volume. So there’s a real question there. But many of those companies have said they’re going to continue to raise prices into later in ’23. The problem is when we run into a company like Coals, which is a retailer here in the US that reported today, and it was all bad, they’re losing customers they’re not able to keep with their costs and other things.
For those companies that cannot pass along price hikes, for whatever reason, it’s really bad news for them. The inflation they’re importing from their vendors is just squeezing their margins, and in some cases, they’re losing money. So, I don’t think the quality of earnings improves from here for at least two quarters. That’s just something to think about as we go into the next Q1 and Q2 earnings.
BFM: Okay, I want to come back to interest rates, Tony, because I’m reading Bloomberg and it seems like the Street is now expecting a terminal rate of 5.6%. Honestly, this changes every day. It was 5.4% not too long ago. But what does this mean for the US dollar? Are we back to the reign of King Dollar again?
Tony: Well, if we see a more hawkish Fed, then I would say yes, that’s probably the case. So, what we would likely see are things like 25 basis points, at least for the next three meetings, if not longer. If we continue to see hot inflation, as we have over the past couple of days, they could do a surprise 50. I don’t think that’s what they’re going to do, but we can’t rule it out. We could also see quantitative tightening, meaning the Fed could unload more mortgage-backed securities or other things, accelerating that from their balance sheet. Because housing is still pretty hot, actually. Prices aren’t moving that much, so we could see the Fed move on MBS or some other things to accelerate that off of their balance sheet. I don’t think that’s highly likely, but it’s a possibility. All of those bode well for the dollar and dollar strength. If that happens, we would definitely see the dollar rise generally.
BFM: Can we take a look at what’s happening over in the US Congress, Tony? There’s a newly formed House committee aimed at examining economic competition between the US and China. I think they held their first hearing earlier this week. What was the outcome? And do you think, as a result, we’re just going to see more trade conflicts between these two superpowers?
Tony: Yeah, so there’s a lot of focus on decoupling from China. There will never be a full decoupling from China. I don’t think we’ll even have a majority decoupling from China. But there are some key industries, like semiconductors and pharmaceuticals, some healthcare aspects that people really do want to decouple from China because we saw through the pandemic that supply chains are very, very dependent on China. Americans want many of those core things closer to home. They’re focused on decoupling. For some reason, people in Congress are just becoming aware that the CCP is in charge of everything in China. So they’ve underestimated the influence of the CCP and they’re waking up to the fact that they’re central in China. We had a couple of former national security advisors suggesting things like accelerating the arming of Taiwan and helping Chinese circumvent the Great Firewall, those sorts of things. And then, of course, human rights. They talked about CCP police outposts that are in US cities where there are actually these CCP outposts that will pursue Chinese nationals within the US, among other things. It’s taking a pretty tough stance on China. I’m not sure to what extreme that will go and what policies will be adopted yet, but I think it’s definitely trying to at least uncover some of the things that Americans haven’t been aware of.
Keep in mind, a little bit of this is theater, right? It’s people in Congress holding hearings to publicize some of their agenda. So, I think it’s a little bit of that so that they can then move into legislation and move the needle just a little bit. I don’t think we’ll see anything extreme, but you will certainly hear some extreme talk over the next couple of months.
BFM: Yeah, but does this change the way fund managers invest? You’ve got this continuing geopolitical tension between the US and China. Is it going to stop, for example, American fund managers from buying Chinese stocks?
Tony: I think it definitely puts China as a higher risk for US portfolio managers. And certainly over the past couple of years, more US portfolio managers have become aware of the risks of investing in China as supply chains close down, among other things. So, I think you will see more of a tighter risk calibration and more weighting of risk for Chinese equities. So, it could potentially not be good for American money investing in Chinese exchanges. Absolutely.
BFM: Tony, thanks very much for speaking with us. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. As he was talking about how March is possibly going to be down, although not as down as February, I couldn’t help but think, ‘Oh, beware the eyes of March.’ But, yes, it’s still choppy out there, especially as the FOMC will be having their meeting this month. I think everyone’s going to wait and see how much they’re going to hike those rates.
Yeah, he gave some predictions on Malaysia as well. He thinks the market will possibly be up by about 1% in March, but the market has been quite disappointing in Malaysia. And he also expects the China market to be down in March by about 2%. And we spoke about the geopolitical risk which may impact US fund managers as well.
In the latest episode of “The Week Ahead”, Tony Nash, Michael Kao, Albert Marko, and Ralph Schoellhammer discussed the current market trends and key themes in the world of finance. The discussion revolved around three main topics – “What kills the US dollar?”, “DXY to 112? Turbulence Incoming”, and “Inflation’s hold on Europe”.
Mike started the discussion by talking about the symposium on the Great Power Competition with China and the US Dollar’s primacy in an era of economic warfare. He emphasized that the US dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency is at risk due to the rise of other currencies such as the Chinese Yuan. Mike further elaborated on the factors that could potentially kill the US dollar, such as a shift towards a new reserve currency or the decline of the US economy.
Moving on to the next topic, Albert spoke about the DXY, which he expects to reach 112 in the near future. He explained that this is due to the strengthening of the US economy, coupled with rising interest rates and the anticipation of the Fed’s monetary tightening. However, he also cautioned that the markets are likely to experience turbulence due to the uncertainties surrounding the central bank policy and the geopolitical risks.
Ralph then focused on the impact of inflation on Europe. He pointed out that inflation in Europe has been rising at an alarming rate, with Austria’s inflation rate being 0.9% m/m and 11.2% on year. Ralph also tweeted about the rapid increase in bankruptcies, and how this could lead to a domino effect on the European economy. He predicted that the European Central Bank’s (ECB) decision to tighten monetary policy would lead to further economic challenges, especially in Q2 of this year.
Key themes: 1. What kills the US dollar? 2. DXY to 112? Turbulence Incoming 3. Inflation’s hold on Europe
This is the 54th episode of The Week Ahead, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Week Ahead. I’m Tony Nash and today we’re joined by Michael Kao. Michael is @urbankaoboy on Twitter. He’s an ex-hedge fund manager and now he’s a private investor. We’re also joined by Albert Marko, who you’re well familiar with, and Ralph Schoellhammer, who is at Webster University in Vienna and he’s a political economics expert.
Tony
So before we get started, I want to talk about our Friends of Tony promo. So I have more than one friend. So it’s plural. Friends of Tony Promo. So, CI Futures is our markets forecasting platform where we forecast about 800 items every month. We do currencies, commodities and equities every week, every Monday morning. And we do the top 50 economies economic variables once a month where we do show our error rates there. So that is what distinguishes us from other folks. There is accountability. And you don’t have to guess about our previous performance. We’re having a promo. The coupon code is friends of Tony. Plural friends. It’s $19.99 per month for a twelve-month subscription. It’s for new subscribers only. We’re only doing it for the first 25 people who come in. So please make sure you get on this right away. Please go to completeintel.com/pricing and we hope you subscribe.
So guys, thank you for joining us. We have a few key themes this week. First, Michael has written quite a bit about the dollar and about the kind of economic warfare happening now between the US. And China. So we’re going to take the other side of his typical argument and look at what kills the US dollar. We’re going to talk to Albert about dollar strength. He made a statement about the dollar going to 112 with some turbulence. So we’re going to dig into that. And then Ralph is going to talk us through inflation’s hold on Europe. So, should be a really broad macro conversation for us today, which I’m really looking forward to. Mike, you did recently attend this symposium on the Great Power competition with China, I think it was at West Point. And you spoke about US dollar primacy and an area of economic warfare, which must have been great. I missed my invite, but it must have been a great discussion and I think we’re all pretty jealous. I assume that much of the presumption or fears about the Chinese Yan, right.
Is that kind of what the basis was of this?
Michael
Yeah, I think generally when people are talking about threats to the US dollar system right. The most glaring contender is the Chinese Yuan, given all the scaffolding that they’re setting up with 60 plus odd bilateral swaps around the world and one belt, one road and all this stuff. Right. But anyways, if you want I can go. First of all, I love the fact that you’re forcing me to steal, man, the counter argument against my own thesis. Good. Which is great. Yes.
Tony
You’ve talked about the US dollar wrecking ball. Right. And you’ve really talked a lot about how the dollar has really kind of hurt some emerging markets. So I do have a chart of USD CNY, and we’ve seen the volatility of the CNY over the past really five years, ten years. And you know, part of my concern about the CNY is the PBOC.
And you know, we can talk about that in detail, but I’d really like to hear, what do you think? If the dollar was displaced, how would that happen? And we could spend days talking about this, but I guess in a summary conversation, how would that happen and what would be a potential other store of value that would be accepted globally?
Michael
Okay, so I was going to answer this question on different time scales, right? There’s short term and there’s longer term, but I believe where you’re going with this is a longer term time scale. Like what ultimately displaces the dollar as the global reserve currency. Right.
Tony
We can talk different timescales. I actually think that’s very interesting.
Michael
Right, well, look, let me dispense with the easy part first, which is the shorter time scale. I’ve been saying for a while now that I don’t necessarily think that we’ve seen the cyclical top in the US dollar in the short term just because I don’t think any of the competing regional blocks can outhawk the Fed. Or conversely, I don’t think the Fed is going to be in a position where it’s going to outdove the rest of the world either. Right. So either of those scenarios tell me that I think the US dollar is probably going to resurge. And so obviously the counter to that, what would have to happen for that not to happen? Well, I think that the US economy would have to suddenly take a turn for the worst and be in a much worse spot than the rest of the world. And the rest of the world would basically be able to become a much more hawkish visa vis the Fed. I see the exact opposite playing out in the short term. Okay, so now longer term and this is basically the topic of my paper, right? So I think the premise of my paper is that this notion that Breton Woods was basically this top down construct that it foisted a Trojan horse mechanism on the world where, hey, everybody, come use the US dollar because we’re going to be convertible to gold.
Michael
And then all of a sudden in 1971, nixon shocks the world and takes that gold tether away. But it’s too late. Everybody is stuck using a dollar. I call bullshit on that thesis because if you look at the Euro dollar, the rise of the Euro dollar banking system, it started happening probably 15 years before that.
Tony
And he was actually very popular when he did that.
Michael
Right? Yeah, well, it’s started happening by the way. It started happening the real catalyst to it first it was the failure of the tripartite agreement after World War II, which tried to stabilize the frank and the pound and the dollar exchange rates. But then in 1957, when Britain basically in a domestic flight against inflation, surprise, surprise, they they basically instituted capital controls. So there was a there was a tremendous global need for a liquid reserve alternative. And so the world actors on the world stage organically flocked to the US. Dollar. So the premise of my paper delves into what are if trust in the dollar already went well beyond its gold backing back then, right? What lent that trust? And so our paper posits that it rests upon national power. It’s a bedrock of national power. And I focus on three economic pillars of national power geography, which informs everything. But then geography also informs a country’s access to its natural resources and its industrial capacity. So in our paper, we talk about how, look, the US. It’s well known that the US. Is very, very naturally bowed with geographic assets that are really unparalleled in many ways.
Michael
And China is short a lot of those assets. However, because we have a federalist capitalist system, china is using essentially economic warfare to target that as a vulnerability, right? So they have unfairly competed and stolen IP in the world of semiconductors. Right. They’re trying very hard to replicate Taiwan success with TSMC. Fortunately the US. Controls critical choke points in that industry still. But yet, in that area at least, the US. Is finally starting to come around and make some very specific targeted export controls as well as changes to its industrial policy. The point here is that in that area alone, the US. Is starting to recognize the importance of reshoring and defending our flank from an industrial policy perspective. But when you compare and contrast that to oil and gas, which is the other critical supply chain where the US. Is currently the leading oil supplier in the world, and we are naturally long that natural resource, but because of blind devotion to ESG adoption and this erroneous assumption that an energy transition is going to follow Moore’s Law dynamic when it won’t right. Is going to leave us in a very dangerous lurch. I point out that there’s a real inconsistency there where we’re kind of shooting ourselves in our own foot when it comes to energy policy.
Michael
To answer your question, what has to happen for the US. To really lose its status? I started thinking. I said, well, number one, okay. Oh, the other thing is much ado has been made of the US. Weaponization and the criminal west seizure of Russian reserve assets and whatnot. Okay, well, look, I also point out in my paper that, yes, that should be a shot across the bow for US. Policymakers because, like the situation in the 1950s, right, it certainly creates an incentive for our adversaries to look for an alternative. But what are the alternatives? Because if you look at the eurozone, the yen, the pound. The euro is, frankly, the most successful challenger to the dollar to date. And yet, since its inception in 1999, us share of FX reserves has stayed constant 60%. It’s the euro that’s actually lost share. Now, the Chinese yuan. Here’s the problem. What has to happen for the yuan to supplant? The US number one, china would have to prove that it will be a better benefactor and more trustworthy sort of steward of the global commons than the US. I don’t see that happening in almost any circumstance.
Tony
So let me ask you just in that what allies does China have? Like, if China were to say, okay, boys, we’re going to war. Line up and let’s form a coalition, who would China’s allies be?
Tony
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Michael
Well, that’s that’s a really good question, because right now right now well, yeah, those those are the those are the two, right? And perhaps, perhaps Iran. Right? But, like, Russia is interesting because China’s relationship with Russia over decades and centuries and even centuries, certainly, right. Has been kind of a storied one. Right. I wouldn’t say that this dragon bear romance is necessarily that chummy, because, look, China is really happy that it’s getting big discounts to Russian euros, right. And that’s directly countered to Russia’s interest, I think this whole notion that right now they share a common interest in wanting to counter the US’s. Hegemony, but that is a very fragile bromance, to say the least. The other thing I was going to say is that the other thing that would have to happen for the US. To see dominance, I think, would be that the US. Willingly essentially becomes a vassal state to China and allows China to roll over. Basically, our interest in the Indopacific, that the US. Allows China to take over Taiwan and we just roll over and do nothing. I guess in a parallel universe, that could happen. I’m not seeing that happening.
Michael
I think that China’s significance alone, not just as an unthinkable aircraft carrier, potentially for China if seized, given its geostrategic position in the first island chain, but obviously Taiwan semiconductor alone is of critical significance.
Tony
Just to take the other side of that for a minute, you know, let’s also be very aware that, you know, the wars that the US. Has lost over the last 80 years have really been to China in Korea, to China in Vietnam. Right.
Albert
We didn’t lose those wars, Tony. Our military objectives were all met. We’re confusing the political opponent.
Tony
We lost those two wars. I mean, we had to negotiate the settlement, and the US lost those two wars. So the only people the US has really lost to over the last, you know, hundred years is the Chinese. And so, you know, I do sit with you and with Albert in terms of if things were to happen, you know, with the US prevail, I actually think they would I don’t think it would be a cakewalk, and I do think there are some scars there in Asia. Right.
Michael
I think you have to compare and contrast that to where the US. Was in World War II, like when Britain lost its hegemony, where the pound lost its hegemony is because the UK was in a very tough spot. It had essentially bankrupted itself after World War II and was completely beholden to the US. The US’s lend Lease program. Right. So the US essentially had all the cards. Now, here the two wars that you talk about. I agree with Albert. It’s not even close to the same thing. We withdrew, and it wasn’t a great withdrawal, but it wasn’t a situation where we had essentially bankrupted ourselves and we were completely dependent on the largess of somebody else. Right.
Albert
If I can interject Michael, we can.
Michael
Go on and on.
Albert
About to go back to Tony’s question, what would come next? I mean, theoretically, the United States would have to have some sort of societal breakdown. Our rule of law would have to break down, and we’d have to become a nonintervationalist nation. We wouldn’t be able to protect our interests globally at that point. Something could come along to dethrone the dollar. But even if we’re at that point, I think the next logical step of removing the dollar as a reserve currency would be an Anglosphere plus Japan digital currency, where regional players would secure their own interests in those regions and have a collective I mean, this is just theoretical and way out of our lifetimes, in my opinion. But I think it would be a step down to that first where our allies and the US. Would jointly have a currency block yeah. Running through all the scenarios, in my opinion, that would be the only thing that would take the dollar. That would be I mean, the dollar would still be a part of it, but it wouldn’t be the main part of it. It would be the sole unit polar one. But you could have an angle sphere plus Japan digital currency for just for trade settlement.
Michael
Now, you know what I think the highest probability sort of gray rhino would be out of all this. It would be that if China made overtures toward Taiwan and Taiwan willingly just say, Here, take me. Because I think last year, or maybe two years ago, I wrote a thread about this, how some of the older guard in Taiwan and you know this, Tony some of the older guards that are with the KMT, they really don’t like the DPP because the DPP wants to get away from the Chinese ancestral roots of the Taiwanese. So the old God doesn’t like that. And so what if China says, hey, we’re going to take you? And then what if Taiwan says, Here, take me to me? That is much more worrisome than an amphibious takeover of Taiwan, which I see is very low probability.
Albert
Yeah, exactly.
Tony
Yeah. I think that is the most likely scenario of the scenarios of China taking over Taiwan. Right. It’s a mutual but with the DPP in power and with DPP as a sizable political party there, it’s a north versus south issue for people don’t really understand. KMT is largely North, DPP is largely south, and DPP comes to power when their policies really align with people in the north from time to time. Right. And so that’s how the DPP gets into power. The DPP is much more nationalistic and independent than the KMT.
Albert
That would be pretty risky, I mean, for the United States if it didn’t intervene in some which way, because then you could talk about North Korea and South Korea unification and siding with the Chinese at some point, which is not out of the realm of possibility, in my opinion.
Tony
Right, okay. Can we agree? Is it eliminated for the next probably 2030 years?
Albert
Yes.
Tony
Do you think it’s eliminated, Michael?
Michael
I think so. I think so as well. I was on a different podcast earlier this week, and I keep alluding to this interesting podcast that Andrew Hunt out of the UK did, where he did analysis on 36 Chinese private banks. And his assessment is that there’s four there’s a $4 trillion liability gap that’s not captured in the in the balance of payments. China is much china is much, much more levered than the US.
Tony
Absolutely.
Michael
But but it’s but it’s hidden. It’s just pin behind the Opacity curtain. That’s exactly right.
Tony
Doesn’t look good. So if we if we push China out, say, 30, 40 years before they’re a contender, and they may not even be they may be too old by that time, because there really isn’t immigration to China right. Except for from North Korea and maybe a couple of other places. So we pushed China out. What about Europe? Will we have European decide for morale in 30 years? Will we have the demographic age of people who can actually work and contribute to the economy?
Albert
They don’t have a functioning military and solely reliant. Their banks are solely reliant on the US. At the moment. They’re insolvent, in my opinion.
Tony
So, yeah, that’s a good point. If you can’t defend yourself and if the demographics continue to get worse, they won’t have people that will defend the area. So if you can’t defend yourself, you can’t have a functional currency. Right.
Ralph
I guess that was a little bit an unintended consequence. And this is something Europeans hate to admit, but of course a lot of EU policy was kind of this dirty secret. The United States were constraining China and Russia, and the Europeans were trying to make deals with them. If you think back them in the entire Russian pipeline network to Europe, and I think with all of it also mentioned, kind of psychological effect was a certain form of infantilization. Right. This idea that military conflicts simply are a thing of the past in many ways, I see the biggest security risk for the United States. I don’t want to over dramatize it, but I see it almost more in Europe than in China or elsewhere, but not because of an actual military conflict, but the commitments to Europe for cultural and historical reasons that this is going to drag down American capacities. This is going to work out. But the European idea and we hear it again europe will now rearment the Titan vendors. They talked about the Germany. If you look at what’s actually happening, it’s just not happening because they know that the populations don’t really have an interest in that.
Tony
Yeah. Okay, so it’s not CNY. It’s not Euro. What else is a viable it’s not Japan.
Michael
Right.
Albert
This is what’s making me allude to the fact that I think that anglosphered plus Japan digital currency would be the only logical step. Next logical step. Just in my opinion. I just can’t see anything else out there. The Swiss francs is not big enough. The pound is not a relic of what it was without any actual alternatives that we can discuss. What’s out there? Nothing’s out there.
Michael
And by the way, all these, like, newfangled ideas of having some sort of pan global currency backed by commodities. But you know what? John made her. Cain’s backed the Bancorp during the battle for Bretton Woods. Harry Dexter White backed the unit. The SDR was tried and failed. The US. Dollar. Is that pan global currency?
Tony
Sure.
Albert
Yeah, it is. I keep arguing with these gold back currency people, and I’m like, what would stop me being the dictator of Albania, of spray paying some lead and saying, there’s my gold? But you can’t really look at it. You know what I mean? No nation gives you a transparent audit. So how could you even have a currency based on such a thing? It’s just silly to me, in my opinion.
Tony
Ralph, jump in.
Michael
Yeah.
Ralph
And I think one of the things this is what Mike did so well, I think in his paper that he presented at Westbourne, I think we have to look at kind of the structural conditions. And in many ways the United States has the occasional incompetent administration, but their structural is still more sound than any potential competitor, definitely more than Europe. And I think if one takes a closer look, they’re all structurally, at the moment, more sound than China. And in the case of a real conflict, I mean, these things really, really matter. And besides the rhetoric in America, we.
Tony
Expect our politicians to be dumb, and we just work around that.
Albert
Yeah, I mean, in a perfect world, the Pentagon would be working with the treasury to weaponize the dollar. I guess in the adversaries, I mean, that’s something the Pentagon has never really understood or really looked at, is like, you can place your adversaries in a certain position, being short commodities, short food, and you can really strain bingo, bingo.
Michael
By the way, that is the premise of our paper. Our paper is literally saying is literally saying that rather than rely on overt sanctions, that basically cause everybody to look for alternatives to the dollar. We’re at this really interesting macroeconomic window where a strong dollar policy inflicts asymmetric pain in our largest geopolitical adversary.
Albert
Yeah, it’s an absolute logical thing to do. And on top of that, not only can you use the dollar, but you can now use derivatives of the dollars, specifically grains. I mean, there’s only five companies in America that control the world’s grain. You can call them up and cause problems for the world or for China, for Russia, for any nation you really want to target if you really want to get down to that level.
Michael
And by the way, it also kills two birds with 1 st, right. Because it basically export our inflation problem because we are in a domestic fight against inflation.
Tony
Okay, that’s a great idea. Let’s do that. Great. Okay, so let’s just call this new currency TBD. How about that? Because I’m not really sure what to put in there. There are a lot of cheerleaders, as you guys have pointed out, trying to push other things forward, but I just don’t see the case for them. And outside of just suspending reality, I just don’t see the case for something else right now. I don’t say that as an American. I like, I’m not necessarily trying to kind of represent for the dollar. I just don’t see the viability of other options right now.
Michael
Yep.
Albert
I would be I would be the first one waving the red flags if there was an actual alternative out there.
Michael
Oh, there was one thing I was going to riff on. Albert, what what you were saying, or Tony, what you were saying in terms of, you know, our politicians being idiots and whatnot. So so my my view on that is that it’s because of the geographic endowments that the US. Has that’s enabled our federalist free market system to arrive and to survive. Because if you think about it, right, if you’re China or Russia with unbelievably shitty geography, it takes an autocratic system to try to hold that bucket of bolts together. To paraphrase Han Solo, why would you.
Tony
Want to own all that land if you’re Russia, why do you want to own the east? I don’t get it. It’s just hard to keep it all together. So that’s a great point, Mike. Okay, great. Hey, let’s go from talking to the dollar to talking about the dollar. Okay. You put a Tweet up earlier this week saying when the dollar started breaking upward, you talked about expecting Dxy to hit 112.
So it’s kind of we’re, we’re heading back to where we were last year, I guess. So can you walk us through that reasoning? And you talked about turbulence. Incoming. Can you, can you talk about what that turbulence is?
Albert
Inflation. It’s back again. And as much as the Fed doesn’t want to admit a mistake, they’ve absolutely created policies of mistakes and allowed inflation to rear its ugly head. I don’t want to leave it all on, all on the Fed. A lot of it has to do with Yellen’s actions and what she’s done with the dollar and then bringing it up and bringing it down. I mean, this goes to Michael’s point of the weaponization of the dollar is, you know, Yellen takes the TGA and she’s in charge of dollar policy. She can take the dollar up. And what she did, and it drove all the liquidity in Europe, back in Asia, back into the United States, which kept our markets propped up.
Tony
For people who haven’t watched this word, can you talk about what the TGA is?
Albert
And then if the treasury general account, she can use it in many ways, but basically it’s injecting liquidity into the economy.
Tony
And how much at what scale has she done over the past, say, nine months or something?
Albert
Prior to the midterms, she was doing about 160,000,000,000 a month.
Michael
Wow.
Tony
Okay, that’s a lot. When you say injecting, where was that going?
Albert
Well, I don’t know exactly where it was going. That’s not really clear. But she was absolutely using it and I’m sure it’s been dispersed throughout the economy and whatever sectors that she needed to send it out to to rally the markets. And she did a good job. I mean, the markets have stayed up here over 4000 for quite a long time and we don’t really deserve to be here at the moment. The problem that we’re having here now is as you rally the markets now, commodities start to rally. I mean, Europe was in a zombie status. China has been in lockdown for the most part. Yeah, I mean, they’re doing this, but as they reopen, inevitably inflation is going to come back. Wage inflation has been persistent. That’s not going to wave. I mean, I mean, honestly, the workers probably deserve wage inflation after 40 years of getting nothing. So, you know, I can’t really blame them on that aspect. But again, we’re, we’re sitting here with a hot PC PCE number today. You know, it looks like CPI is probably going to be sticky again next, next time around. And the Fed is going to be talking about 50 basis points when they, you know, previously the markets were calculating that we’re going to do a pause or a pivot in a later in the year.
Tony
That’s just not happening. A couple of meetings.
Michael
No. So I mean, this honestly feels like Q one of 22 to me. The whole setup right now feels like Q one of 22.
Albert
We’re right back where we started, Michael. Right back where we started. Because of Fed policies, they’ve done nothing to correct the situation with inflation.
Tony
Okay, so what’s going to happen to drive the dollar up? Yellen stops spending out of the TGA or doesn’t spend as much, or Fed policy, all the above. What happens to contribute to that?
Albert
I think it’s going to be a combination of Fed policy and then the ECB, the Europeans being hawkish themselves. But I think that we’re looking at 75 basis points, probably going up to five and 5.75 on the Fed funds rate by the end of the year, maybe even six. I don’t think they can go over that. But I mean, that alone should take the dollar up to 112. I’m sure they can, but taking the dollar over 115 to 120, you’re going to start causing massive problems. Rest of the world, you just start breaking things.
Michael
Can I ask Ralph a question?
Tony
Absolutely, sure.
Michael
So Ralph, I’m curious. I agree with Albert’s thesis. When I look at the inflation prints in Europe and in the UK, still so high, that gives me a little bit of pause right again on betting on the dollar continuing to rise, except when you look at the state of the economy. And so I’m curious how you see that, because I believe the last UK GDP print was very close to skirting the zero bound. So how much more can the BoE or the ECB really do?
Tony
Sorry, before we do that, let’s move into rough section, which is inflation hold on Europe, right? Which is exactly what you’re talking about. And so we saw Austrian CPI committed 11.2% year on year. When was the last time that happened, Ralph? I mean, what we’ve seen over the past few months maybe, I don’t know, 40 years ago or something.
Ralph
Oh, yeah, before I was born. And so this has been significantly long time ago. The problem is, despite what the ECB does for European politicians, it’s always the 1930s. So the answer, the economic problem is that it must be a demand side problem. So every time the ECB hikes rates, the government comes in with fiscal expansion. And Australia is the best example for this. Pretty much everything that would have been caused by higher rates has been softened by government spending and now expected government spending to happen in the future, which is they very slowly or not at all changed their behavior. So the, the idea to. Kind of, you know, pull money out of the system due to high interest rates is not working as as expected. I mean, we we saw it in Germany. It was when we met the last time, right? They said that there was actually slow growth in Germany in Q four 2022. Then they said that was a slight contraction of 0.2. Today we got the second revision. That actually it’s a contraction of 0.4. And that’s mostly because there was government spending. Otherwise it would have been significantly worse.
Ralph
And I think this is really the problem we are running into. So every time the ECB tries to high grade, governments will jump in with their own fiscal policies, trying to soften it. And what, of course, happens as a consequence, europe is losing its industrial base. So supply side politics, which would be necessary, they become more and more difficult. I mean, Tracy on the last weekend did a great job in kind of just listing all the aluminum smelters and all the heavy industry that has been closed down. We heard today that Germany’s chemical giant BASF is shrinking operations all over Europe. So at some point, you cannot just turn this back on again. So I’m very worried about the structural health of Europe, or even if we look at R and D and spending, right out of the top ten R and D spenders, there is one European company, which is Volkswagen, but all the other companies, most of them are American and some of them are Asian. But Europe is losing kind of connection to all of this just as a challenge to you guys. I mean, name one groundbreaking innovation or one groundbreaking area, and let’s say the high tech area where Europe or European nation was on the forefront in the last 20 years.
Ralph
Nothing comes to my mind.
Michael
Well, ASM Lithography.
Albert
Ralph brings up a great point, and one I usually harp on a lot is whenever you have political policies intermixing with economic policies, you have a problem because politicians want to get elected and their terms are a lot shorter than economic policies need. You know what I mean? That’s just the reality of it. I mean, the Germans, they say they’re tightening things up, but then they give 80% of their population, 80% of their paycheck to stay home. That’s not going to help.
Michael
And by the way, all this, right, all the slowdown in BASF and all that that you’re talking about, Ralph, this is with an extremely benign weather backdrop this year that enabled Ttf and NBP to collapse.
Tony
So huge benefit.
Ralph
I think there are two other very important issues that particular European politicians don’t get and that you and Mike had also talked a lot about, which is there is this weird idea that if Europeans and Americans stop drilling and supplying the world with fossil fuels, that somehow the prices will go down. But exactly the opposite is going to happen because we’re still going to consume it, we just no longer produce it, which is great for all the non European and non American producers. And the second part, what I think Europeans still don’t understand, is there is still this idea that the world will go back to as it was, let’s say ten years ago, like very early on. But even if there were, new should stop. Right? It’s obvious that there is a new kind of industrial policy happening that French showing that reassuring is going to happen and that will push upwards pressure on prices. And Europeans, at some point, they’re going to feel this. I mean, we see. With Germany, Europe is increasingly becoming a continent that has to import more and more, but everything we can export is becoming less and less.
Ralph
That is not a sustainable model unless we say we just become the world’s biggest retirement home tourist destination. But other than that, it’s really problematic.
Albert
That’s interesting because I remember Belina and I were talking about what Europe should do and it was definitely bring black your supply chains to Eastern Europe, north Africa, closer to home, something Europe can drive in investments and actually hold it close to close to their hand there. But they just have not done anything. They want to rely back on the old guard of let’s go to China and grab their market share. Meanwhile, Africa is sitting right there. That’s going to have a bigger population in the next 25 years than China and Younger and Hungary for innovation and products, but they haven’t capitalized on that.
Ralph
It’s like an inversion of the 19th century, right, when there was once a time where Europeans looked at the map and so everything is a potential part of the empire, not like they barely looked at the map at all. And I think it shows in their economic policies.
Tony
Yeah. Just going back over to what you were saying about the short termism of governments, and we see this, at least in the west, the bureaucracy is supposed to be the part of government that helps the office holders to see the longer term. But the quality of our bureaucracy has deteriorated so much over the last 2030 years that they just don’t care.
Albert
They don’t care. I put a lot of blame on social media right now. I mean, all these politicians get on social media and do catch phrases and this and that, and everything is in the real and now and immediate and so on and so forth, six months down the road. They don’t care. Simply, they don’t care.
Tony
Yeah. Ralph, one of the things that you tweeted out earlier, and I know Michael found this really interesting, was the bankruptcies in Europe. This was a Eurostat chart that came out looking at the rate of acceleration of bankruptcies across industries. Can you talk to us about that a little bit?
Ralph
Yeah, I mean, there’s a couple of factors not work. I mean, one is that a lot of these companies it’s kind of what happened in the financial sector during the Great Recession where you had these zombie banks. I think a lot of this is now also happening in the real economy and the industrial economy where many companies have been propped up during Cobit, they have been propped up by very low interest rates and this is now coming to an end. I can only speak for Austria, but there are many companies, of course, also have loans, some of them with not fixed interest rates. And of course they are squeezed now, so they have huge problems in refinancing themselves. And I think this is just the beginning. I don’t share the optimist. I’m kind of a little bit Albert here. Everybody who says that either inflation is going to be over, there’s no trustworthy indicator for me that inflation is ending anytime soon. And the second one is this idea and you mentioned this also, Tony, one of your tweets. I think the IMF forecast for growth in the Eurozone are too optimistic. I think that factors that are not yet calculated.
Ralph
Absolutely. And of course the big elephant in the room comes and go to mike, did you mention, is of course, energy. Like, everybody is like, oh, the energy crisis is over. But that’s only because elasticities in the energy sector are very low. So yes, if there is a lot available right now, it immediately affects the price. But there is no guarantee that it’s going to stay like this in the medium and long term. And if I look at European policy, I think that it’s going to get worse before it gets better seems more likely. And you see gradually signals like this coming from the International Energy Agency and from Goldman Sachs. So all of a sudden the optimists of two months ago say, well, it might be more problematic than we anticipated it to be. And one part of the story is something that also Mike mentioned. At some point, I think we have to say this also openly is this obsession with ESG and an energy transition that makes the promise that by 2030, 2035 the European economy is going to run entirely on renewables, which is an unrealistic. And we want to be more outspoken about it, which I think is a ludicrous proposal that cannot be fulfilled.
Michael
I call that the grativerse.
Tony
Yeah, we’ll all be driving.
Ralph
As a quick last point if we want to put real numbers on it. I mean, the German government alone, the Europeans spent almost a trillion dollars on energy last year. The Germans spent about $465,000,000,000 only on energy and all it got them was the declining economy by 0.4% in the first quarter. So what is their strategy if they want to do this again next year and we see it in the spread? At some point markets are going to look at Germany and say, listen, your reputation has been great for the last 40 years, but can you really still.
Tony
Deliver what what you germany’s got a lot of they’ve got a lot of capacity for fiscal spending. I just think they haven’t opened up as much as they need to yet. I mean, I think that’s part of.
Albert
Their they can’t they go into a doom loop of inflation.
Michael
What happens when Mother Nature doesn’t cooperate next time around?
Albert
Right?
Ralph
I think all of you are right. Tony’s right. I think there is still wiggle room. But what are they doing with the money? Right? Instead of making capital investment and saying, okay, we solve the problem, to do something they pretty much put it all into welfare checks, energy subsidies, but exactly. Encourage people to spend more and more products that are less and less available. So what’s the only thing you get? It’s inflation. I don’t know what the politicians are looking at.
Tony
Speaking of that, let’s talk about everyone’s favorite central banker, Madam Lagarde, and the choice that she has at the next meeting. She said earlier this week that they’re likely to raise by 50 basis points at the next meeting.
So what we’ve seen, the last two rate hikes were 50. We saw a couple of 75s in September and October. So there had been a hope like there was in the US. That things would not loosen or ease, but at least slow down on the rate hiking front in Europe. But with the pace of inflation, it almost seems like they don’t really have a choice, right?
Ralph
I would agree. Yeah, I think they don’t have a choice.
Tony
Okay, well, that’s it.
Michael
Well, I think they’re going to try. But what I really think reading between the lines of all the tough talk with all the world central bankers what I think everybody if you look through to their actions so far, I think everybody has been holding their breath, hoping that the Fed is going to engineer a global recession so that they don’t need to be the ones to have to administer the medicine. But the problem is, and I alluded to this in a thread a couple of months ago called geopolitical mosh pits, right? We’re in this every man for himself world where everybody’s got a domestic inflation problem. And so what the Fed does needs to sorry, the United States interests need to take precedence over necessarily worrying about other central banking interests and vice versa. But the problem is that right now the US economy is still humming along whereas the rest of the world’s economies are faltering pretty badly already. Your guess is as good as mine. I just think that Lagarde’s job is really tough because there’s no panned global bond market. Really. So she’s got this ridiculous Tpi mechanism where she’s trying to hold together sovereign spreads and the ECB’s sort of bond purchases as a percentage of GDP already at like 60% compared to the Fed at like 34% compared to japan at 120%.
Tony
Right.
Albert
I’m glad you mentioned that Michael, about nation states interest because it’s one of the things I harp on, especially when I talk to younger people and they ask me about geopolitics. The first thing you have to look at is a nation’s self interest and there’s no better time than right now to prove that example and you’re seeing it firsthand. All these nations, they have to have their own self interest that are before anything else at the moment.
Tony
And that’s normal, right?
Michael
That’s healthy.
Tony
I think that it’s so silly when we have to consider other people. Of course there’s a time for that, but it’s not right now. You have to really look after your own country, whether it’s India, Germany, US, China, whatever, it doesn’t matter. You have to look after your country first. Rough.
Ralph
But that’s the thing. Exactly what Albert just said and this I think makes it an even bigger ticking time bomb for Europe. You have notice absurd situation that politicians of member states of the EU, they want to continue to do populist economic policies while when they fail they can put blame on the Europe, on the ECB. So technically what probably should do before the next and out sort of a rate hike is to go out and say listen, cannot clean up the mess that you guys make in the domestic economic policies. And of course that’s not something that she’s probably going to say, but that’s really the dilemma. Data us almost have an advantage with the somewhat something that Albert is criticizing all the time, justifiably so with the kind of the chummy relationship between the Fed and the government. But at least it all happens within one state, right? It all happens within one country. And also going back to what Mike said about the federal structure. But in Europe, it’s kind of the worst of two worlds because the ECB tries to fine tune the economic problems via interest rates and the politicians that just go out and say, oh, I know you have to pay more on your loan, but here is an extra check for you.
Ralph
So you could almost say it’s like the nation states are mocking in the sense what DCP is trying to do.
Tony
Yeah, Mike, you said that Lagarde has a very hard job. I actually think it’s very hard because it’s very easy. There really isn’t a lot of choice there. It’s hard having the wherewithal I guess to go through with these things that are probably going to end up being.
Michael
Pretty painful, by the way, to steal man the other side a little bit. Okay, there are some that say that okay, well the Fed, because we have all these bilateral currency swaps, the Fed is going to take care of all its friends. Right. And so we actually saw a little bit about that. I wrote a thread last year about how, when the Yen, for instance, started its first approach towards 145 ish 140 ish I got some talk from a very well placed source that basically the Fed, in conjunction with the DOJ was allowing the BOJ to essentially buy us ten years to basically kind of paint a picture to stymie the depreciation and the yen. Okay? So then we saw this big risk rally. Remember when that happened and the yen corrected back? Well, then I get a call from the same source saying, you know what my people are telling me? My people at the Fed are telling me that, you know what? They can’t hold the line anymore. They’re going to basically stop. That’s when you saw the yen go to 150. Right now we’re in this sort of everybody calls it the transitory boldilocks, where things kind of came down and you’ve got Yellen’s games with the TGA, et cetera.
Michael
But I really think, and I think I agree with everybody on on this call, that all hell is going to break loose again when the dollar starts approaching 110 again. And this time maybe there won’t be that sort of bilateral help.
Albert
Yeah, michael is absolutely right. I heard the same thing about the Fed and the BOJ on top of that.
Tony
I thought you were a source, Albert.
Albert
Right, because I talked to you about.
Ralph
It a couple of times.
Albert
But they do the same thing with the Aussies and New Zealand and Canada. They give them marching orders, say, hey, we’re going to paint a picture over here, so gives us room to do something over here, so on and so forth. But like I said, that’s the Anglosphere and plus Japan. That’s why one of the things that led me to believe is like, next thing for a currency would probably be them. But they already work together as it is, whether the market knows it or not, they talk and they work together. Yeah.
Ralph
I think it very often comes back to this very point that this is something that Michael’s and I said before it’s that, of course, what underwrites the dollar as the global reserve currency and the most powerful currency is because the United States have the most powerful economy. Whatever problems they have otherwise, their economy in many ways is still the most dynamic and the most innovative. And this is what I interfere about. The European situation is we can criticize politics, we can criticize the ECB, but I think we also have to criticize European industry itself. Because like in Germany with heavy industry, they never say anything. Right? They could get together and say this. You hear occasionally a voice there and occasionally a voice there, but there is no concerted actions by representatives of the industry to do something about it. And my suspicion is because they kind of made it comfortable for themselves because they know they get government subsidies, they might have to produce less, but I’d rather depend on the biggest monopoly there is. The state than on those pesky customers or those potentially unsecured international markets. But that’s a very short time perspective.
Ralph
I mean, this is not something it can do forever. And again, the only reason why Europe could do what it did was because they could rely on the United States to provide with the bluewater navy to everything else. They provided the framework in which Europe could do what it did. But as this framework is changing, because Albert would never talk to me again, I’m not going to move all multipolar because you would because I don’t agree with that idea either. But it’s definitely changing, I think. I think Americans are becoming more sensitive to listen, guys, you have been pre writing for 60 years. It’s time to do something yourself.
Tony
Yeah, go ahead, Mike.
Michael
So, Ralph, you touch upon another theme that we raised in our paper, which was, again, it goes back to geography, right. Because the US has had these geographical advantages. It’s allowed its military strategy to focus outward on force projection and develop that blue water navy. Right? So when you compare that and compare and contrast that to China, right, where you could argue that they’ve got greenwater superiority within the first island chain by virtue of 350 vessels versus our 270, but the gross tonnage is one third that of the US. Navy. They cannot force project. And so if you talk about real force projection and geopolitical power right. Again, to steal man the other side, what would cause the US. To see the T hegemony? Well, it would be that scenario where China somehow decides that, hey, you know what? We are going to subsidize global maritime security for the good of the global commons. Do you see China doing that? I sure don’t.
Albert
Not for all of us to century. And it takes a lot of money to build up a navy. And then you need combat experience. And then on top of that, any kind of conflict in Taiwan or the South China Seas shuts down their ports. China cannot afford to shut down their ports. I was going back and forth with Elbridge Colby about this. He’s a military guy, and I love the guy. Right. But when you have to look at the economic aspects of it concerning the dollar and China’s food insecurity problems and their economy in general, if they invaded Taiwan and shut down those ports and their economy collapsed, she would be dead in 30 days.
Michael
There’s a little issue of China having to import 80% to 90% of its crude, all of which pretty much come through the Strait of Malacca.
Tony
Yeah.
Albert
I mean, so but this is this is something that it’s really important for you to talk to the military and get that USD thing out there and talk about commodities and talk about the economic ramifications and say this is a significant deterrence for China to invade. This is a significant deterrence for any nation to really go after because there’s just no money around. The economies are really weak. So it’s a great thing that you’ve done.
Michael
Thank you. I hope you guys enjoy the paper. Yeah, sorry.
Tony
Just going back to what you said, Mike, about China not having the blue water navy, really, to protect trade and waterways. They have tried that with the Belt and Road. It’s been less than a decade, but it’s kind of been a failure since the start of it.
Michael
The thing with belt and road, right? If you think about what it is, they are expending tremendous amounts of national treasure to recreate what the US. Is naturally endowed with.
Tony
Right. Yeah. It’s very inefficient.
Michael
It’s very corrupt, and they’re failing at that.
Tony
I start with those. When I was trying to put in a tendering system for the Belt and Road transparency, I asked them, how much are you comfortable losing to corruption? 20%, 30%, 50%? People just shrug shoulders. Nobody wants to even look at those basic transparency issues, much less understand that that spending is incredibly wasteful just for some sort of desperately seeking some sort of relevance with third tier countries. Right. I mean, no offense, they’re great people and all that stuff, but they are not necessarily economic powerhouses, and they’re not necessarily strategically placed. So it’s a big problem, and corruption is a big problem in those places. So not only are they going to have to buy off Chinese industry to go in these places to build, they’re going to have to buy off the officials in those countries to get the infrastructure done. Okay, guys, let’s bring this back to Europe. Since Europe is kind of our last group. Ralph, I get the sad sense that when Mike talks about dollar resurgence and Albert talk about dollar resurgence and inflation is pushed on the rest of the world and these sorts of things, europe and European industries show this as well.
Tony
Europe isn’t really a growth engine, of course. Right. So is Europe the worst place of the regions in the world generally, when we see a dollar resurgence and inflation and kind of these coming headwinds? Probably not.
Ralph
I mean, I remember I asked all about this, I think almost a year ago, once on Twitter. I think that the ties between the US. And Europe are still so strong that I could imagine that the US. Would be willing to adapt their policies in a way to protect Europeans from the fallout that will find some ways to support them. Okay, I think that, again, maybe I’m putting too much hope in the US. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, but I think that these ties are still strong. I think this is the US. I think they still view Europe as part of the national interest. But spoke to be very clear, I’m glad of I mean, something that bothers me, really, is I think the best thing Europe could do would be to place itself as Athens to America’s wrong kind of place I can feel to the strongest player on the block. But don’t try to be as again, Albert, we’ve discussed it many times to participate in this fantasy of the new multipolar world where you will balance the US in a quasi agreement with India and China. This is all fantasy.
Ralph
None of this is real. When push comes to Sharp, I think the US are still the best bet for the Europeans. But to be kind of a psychological problem in Western Europe, I think this is another thing.
Tony
Of course.
Ralph
I think the Eastern Europeans, particularly Poland and others I think are much more willing to attach themselves or kind of align themselves with the US. I think Western Europe and it’s mostly cultural, psychological that they still wish to be kind of a counterweight potentially to the rude Americans and the alcohol.
Tony
We’re definitely rude. We’ll take that. Okay, guys, we’ve been an hour, so I appreciate all of the thought you put into today. For everyone watching, please don’t forget about the promo. The Friends of Tony for promo promo 1st 25 subscribers. Guys, I really appreciate your time. Time. Have a great weekend. Have a great weekend. Thank you very much.
The Morning Run podcast by BFM 89.9 featured Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, discussing the state of the US economy, market movements, and supply chains. The podcast began with a brief overview of the previous day’s market performances. The key US markets had ended in the green, while all Asian markets were in the red, except for the FBMKLCI, which was up by 0.3%.
The podcast host then discussed with Tony the state of the US economy. The US retail sales in January increased the most in two years, and the home builder sentiment rose in February by the most since 2020. Meanwhile, US inflation rose by 0.5% in January. According to Tony, these indicators suggest that there is still demand, and consumers are still willing to spend. Companies are able to raise prices pretty dramatically, resulting in more revenue and faster growth, even if the volume of sales is slightly lower. Tony believed that the Federal Reserve will continue to raise interest rates. He felt that the Fed should have kept the foot on the brake a little more in the last meeting when they hiked by 50. He thinks that the interest rate will remain at 25 for the next three meetings, but the question is how much beyond that will they raise it.
The podcast then moved on to discuss company performance, particularly in the tech industry. Cisco delivered strong results and beat street expectations, suggesting that companies still have money for capex. Tony believed that companies are having to build out more robust technology infrastructure for their existing operations, which is good for tech infrastructure companies like Cisco. However, there is a divergence in the tech industry, with old tech like HP Enterprise and Cisco doing better than new tech like Apple and Amazon. Companies like Apple, Amazon, and Meta suffer on the ad side because there is a growing supply of ad space, but there are not as many ad dollars, and companies have generally less to allocate to marketing on a proportional basis.
Finally, the podcast touched on supply chains. Tony believed that supply chains have generally recovered, partly due to the falling demand. However, there are still challenges, particularly with logistics and labor shortages. Companies are looking at how to reduce supply chain risks and increase resilience, including reshoring and nearshoring. Tony believed that the current supply chain challenges could last up to two years, and he recommended that companies should develop more robust supply chain strategies.
In summary, Tony Nash shared his insights into the state of the US economy, the tech industry, and supply chains during The Morning Run podcast. He believes that there is still demand in the US economy, with consumers willing to spend and companies able to raise prices. The tech industry is experiencing a divergence between old and new tech, with old tech companies doing better. The supply chains have recovered, but there are still challenges, particularly with logistics and labor shortages. Companies should develop more robust supply chain strategies to increase resilience and reduce supply chain risks.
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, The Business Station.
BFM 89.9, 7:05 A.m. On Thursday, the 16 February you are listening to The Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning and Chong Tjen. Now, in half an hour, we’re going to move the proposal for Petronas to be publicly listed in order to pare down national debt. But we are going to kickstart the morning as we always do, and it looks like it’s going to be a glorious morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.
So all key US markets ended in the green. The Dow was up 0.1%, S&P 500 up 0.3%, NASDAQ up 0.9%. In Asian markets, they were all in the red, except for our very own FBMKLCI. The Nikkei was down 0.4%. Hang eng down 1.4%. Shanghai Composite down 0.4%. The Straits Times Index down 1.1%. But the FBMKLCI, it was up by 0.3%.
So for some thoughts on what’s moving markets, we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Now, US retail sales in January jumped at the most in two years, and home builder sentiment rose in February by the most since 2020. While US inflation rose by 0.5% in January. What do all these indicators tell us about the state of the US economy?
Tony
It says that there’s still demand. It says that consumers are still willing to spend and that people really aren’t slowing down. We’re seeing things like price over volume. Meaning as we see more companies report, their earnings reports, they’re able to raise prices pretty dramatically, say, eight to say 12%, generally with a volume decline of, say, one to 3%, meaning the number of sales. Okay, so these companies are choosing to raise their prices and have fewer sales, but it results in more revenue and faster growth. So consumers are willing to pay more. They’re just buying slightly less of things.
BFM
And Tony, taking all this into account, what do you think the Federal Reserve will likely do next?
Tony
Yeah, they’re going to continue to raise. I do think that Powell missed a trick in hiking 50 in the last meeting. I do think they probably should have kept the foot on the brake a little bit more as a transition from 75 to 25. But I think for 25, it’s kind of as far as the I can see right now, at least while the current pace of the economy holds up. So, you know, we’ll certainly see 25 for the next three meetings. The question is, how much beyond that will we see it?
BFM
And Tony, are you in the camp where I have seen more economists raising their forecast for US GDP growth? I see numbers jumping from 1% to 2% for the first quarter. Are you in that camp?
Tony
Our view has been 1.4 this year, so it really hasn’t changed.
BFM
Okay.
Tony
We do reforecast each month.
CI Futures covers 50+ economies around the world. You can see historical data and forecasted data in an instant, like the US GDP here. Learn more about CI Futures: https://www.completeintel.com/futures
BFM
All right. And then looking at some results right. Old tech, Cisco delivered really good numbers, beating street expectations with strong spending on tech infrastructure, suggesting that companies still have money for capex. Is this indicative that actually companies are doing better than we expected?
Tony
Well, I’m not sure it means companies are doing better because earnings generally are on a slowing trend. But I think what it means is that companies are having to build out more robust technology infrastructure for their existing operations. And that’s good for the tech infrastructure companies like Cisco. So we are at the emergence of a new tech cycle with generative AI, there’s a ChatGPT and so on. So companies are going to need more robust infrastructure to deal with that.
BFM
But then we also notice there’s a divergence right when it comes to results. So old tech like HP Enterprise and Cisco doing better versus new tech like you see results being soft from the likes of Apple, Amazon. Will this divergence continue?
Tony
Well, I think when you look at things like Apple, Amazon, Meta, these sorts of guys, part of their revenues are ad revenues. And what’s happening on the ad side is we have a growing, say, supply of ad space with different companies coming on, like Netflix offering ad models. So there’s more ad supply. There are not as many ad dollars out there, or even if you assume the same ad dollars. With inflation, people are having to make trade offs. Companies are having to make trade offs, so they have generally less to allocate to marketing on a proportional basis. But there’s more ad supply out there. So many of those tech companies where ads are a part of their revenue mix, they’re suffering on the ad side.
BFM
Turning our attention to supply chains. During the Pandemic, the world faced a series of supply chain stresses made worse by the Ukraine conflict and China’s sporadic lockdowns. Do you think that global supply chains have recovered? Are they functioning better now? Or do you still see some kind of rocky road ahead?
Tony
I’d say generally supply chains have recovered. Part of that is demand falling. So we had in the port of Long Beach, we had the volume declined by about 28% in January. So the volume of imports have have actually gone down year on year on the west coast of the US. So the demand there is slowing. We’ve seen one of the indicators is headcount cuts. Guys like Federal Express or FedEx and UPS are cutting headcount. FedEx has announced about a 10% workforce cut, which tells me those are usually the guys who see the supply chain issues first and the guys who see the slowdowns first as well. So if they’re cutting staff, it tells me that some of these things are really slowing down.
When we look at delays at Chinese port, for example, they’re about half the time of what they were about a year and a half ago. So they’re not really bad at all. And then when we look at, say, freight that’s waiting on ships that’s down dramatically to, say, Q1 of 2020 levels before all of the COVID stuff set in. There’s a great just for your listeners, keel. The Kiel, K-I-E-L, I think in Germany has a great indicators on supply chain delays. So I would recommend you guys to check that out.
BFM
And Tony, ASEAN is a key player in this global supply chain. Which countries in this region are likely to be major outperformers in that regard?
Tony
Well, you guys know Malaysia is seeing more inward investment, especially around electronics, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw some upside in Malaysia. I know the expectations for Malaysia aren’t as aggressive as, say, Indonesia or Vietnam, but it’s possible that Malaysia overperforms those expectations. Indonesia, I think there are a lot of expectations on indonesia’s outperformance partly on AG prices, but also partly on movement of some manufacturing to Indonesia, which has a pretty low base. And then Vietnam, of course, you know, we’ve seen blistering growth in Vietnam. We expect that to continue as people look for a substitute for Chinese supply chains.
BFM
And Tony, are you still a bull on energy stocks? Because if you look at the sector, it’s the worst performing in the S&P 500 today and also for the month so far. We see energy stocks all coming under pressure, I think in part due to all prices stagnating and weak earnings from some of these companies. Is it time to buy or is it time to just step back and say, hey, maybe I should cash in my chips?
Tony
Yeah, I think you have to look at the different segments of energy. So, for example, oilfield service providers, we’re starting to see upstream, meaning people who take oil and gas out of the ground starting to spend on development outside of the US. So some of these oil and gas services providers, it’s a very interesting space to look at right now because we haven’t had CapEx in so long in oil and gas. And as we get that, we could see some of these service providers do really well. In terms of oil price. I do think that we do see upward pressure. I don’t think anybody really expected that to hit in Q1, but as we end Q1 and go into Q2, we do start to see that. And I think we do see I don’t think we see two or $300 crude oil this year, but I think low 100s, 110s, high 90s. I think those are definitely within possibility and likelihood.
BFM
Tony, thanks very much for speaking with us today. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. Ending the conversation there with just a projection on how oil prices could be trending later on this year.
Yeah, so I think we’ll have to watch this space. But I want to focus on one of the names that I mentioned earlier on, which is Cisco. Right. So their results came out. In fact, it went up 8% after market hours trading because the street was really impressed with the numbers. Apparently the earnings, the last time we saw this kind of level earnings was in 2013, and that’s like a long time ago. So a lot of attention on Wall Street has been on what I call the new tech. So Amazon, meta, Apple, Microsoft, even on some level. But there’s a little bit of a shift. And I think what these names are showing is that, hey, there is still spending out there.
Yeah, I think the CEO actually said that the public sector business performed stronger than expected as compared to historically. While in the service provider category, some customers are adjusting to better delivery of the company’s products into the environment. In terms of the guidance for the next quarter, Cisco is guiding adjusted earnings of 96 to 98 cents to share and revenue of roughly about 14.25 to 14.5 billion dollars.
So currently the street doesn’t really like this name that much because there’s only 14 buys, 15 holds, and one sell. Consensus target price for the stock is $53.83. Like we say, it was already up 8% after market hours, right. I won’t be surprised. After these set of numbers, we will see quite a number of upgrades on this name because the company is already suggesting on giving guidance a more positive one.
That’s right. Their guidance is more positive for the next quarter. But turning our attention to other earnings report we have, the Canadian ecommerce platform Shopify. Shopify, in contrast to Cisco, didn’t have such a great report. They reported a loss of $623.7 million in the fourth quarter after adjusting for stock based compensation, gains on investments and other costs. The company reported earnings of 7 cents a share, down from adjusted earnings of 14 cents per share in the holiday quarter.
And revenue came in at about $1.73 billion, up from $1.38 billion. And the analysts on average expected an adjusted loss of a penny a share on sales of about $1.65 billion. The company said Black Friday sales rose close to 20% last year from 2021. And this year is working to recover from a misplaced bet that the Pandemic Field search in online shopping would become more permanent. Although he’s cut jobs, raised prices, and expanded offerings to merchants.
19 buys, 25 holes, five sells. Consensus target price for the stock, $46.48. Actually, the current share price is already above that, to $53.39 year to date. Actually, the stock is up 53%, but I think came from a very low base because 2022 was very painful for them.
All right, 07:17 A.m.. We’re going to take a quick break, but we’ll come back and cover more top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned to BFM 89.9 you have.
Been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the BFM app.
The Week Ahead with Tony Nash brings together experts Tony Greer, Albert Marko, and Tracy Shuchart to discuss the key themes affecting the markets. In this episode, the focus is on Inflation 2.0, Market Chaos, and Russian Supply Caps.
Albert Marko leads the discussion on Inflation 2.0, and explains his view that inflation will re-accelerate this year. He talks about how various factors such as the Federal Reserve, a potential recession or slowdown, and war could impact his thesis. He also mentions the upward revision of December Consumer Price Index (CPI) and the upcoming release of the January CPI.
Tony Greer then takes the lead on Market Chaos and explains why he is bullish on metals and oil. He discusses his views on copper and explains his outlook on crude oil, which he tweeted about in January.
Tracy Shuchart focuses on Energy and the Russian supply caps. She talks about Russia’s announcement to cut production to 500k barrels per day and what this could mean for crude quotas and price caps. She also discusses the impact on natural gas.
Finally, the experts provide their expectations for the Week Ahead.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Week Ahead. I’m Tony Nash. And today we’re joined by Tony Greer. Tony is with TG macro. He does the morning navigator newsletter. He’s an OG with RealVision and he’s just very, very popular and we’re really lucky to have him today. We have Albert Marko, of course and Tracy Shuchart. We’re very fortunate to have both of them today. So thanks guys, for taking the time to talk with us today. I really appreciate it.
Tony Greer
My pleasure. Thanks for asking.
Tony Nash
Great. So we’re going to start today with Albert. We’re going to be talking about inflation. Albert, you’ve said several times over the past several months that we’re going to have kind of a re-acceleration of inflation this year. And we just had an upward revision of the December CPI. And of course, we have another CPI, the Jan CPI is out on Tuesday. There was a viewer question talking about kind of your Inflation 2.0 thesis.
Can you talk us through that? What are you thinking of when you think through that and when do you think it’ll materialize?
Albert
I’m looking at multiple variables at the moment. Russia probably reactivating some of the military operations in Ukraine, which I think we started to see the last couple of days a little bit. We have China reopening. The Europeans have been in a zombie state, so they’re technically reopening, so their demand is coming back. All that’s going to be inflationary, in my opinion. But the biggest factor that I see has been Yellen’s use of the TGA to offset QT.
Tony Nash
What’s the TGA?
Albert
Well, the treasury general account. So she has a big slush fund of money where she can place wherever she wants. And what that’s been doing has been helping rally the markets purely out of political reasons. And when you have a net zero quantitative tightening cycle, it’s like, what do they expect that to happen at the moment?
Tony Nash
Let me back up just for people who aren’t… So we had a Fed meeting last week. They raised by 25, they’re continuing QT incrementally. Right. And so what you’re saying is that Yellen is offsetting that QT with spending from the TGA?
Albert
Yeah, it’s exactly what I’ve been saying. I’ve been at this for quite a long time. She’s gone hog wild on the treasury bills in the recent months and that’s pretty much the reason we got a stock rally. You’re looking at the duration of liquidity, which is very, very important and nobody really wants to talk about that at the moment. So I mean, these stock rallies have gives a perception of a solid market and overall economy aiming to help the Biden administration for purely political reasons. Right. And this revision, yeah, it was revised and people think it’s an incremental revision, but it’s a 33% rise and CPI from the for the previous data, so it’s not incremental whatsoever.
Tony Nash
Yeah, month on month it’s, it’s a little bit elusive for people to understand how big of a revision this is. Whenever economic data come out, anybody who follows me knows I always say wait for the revision. Right. Especially with OECD countries, wait for the revision because they hide stuff and they leak it out in previous data, other things. And so, as you just said, Albert, there was a 33% revision in the December CPI. That’s massive, right?
Albert
Yeah. Wage inflation is spiraling out of control. We have not just the United States, but now you have the Bank of Japan reporting more inflation from their side. In fact, the Australians did the same thing. They’re having hot CPI numbers. I mean, if we have a hot CPI number coming Tuesday, I mean, it’s just not going to be pretty for equities, in my opinion. And I think that’s why Jerome Powell would soft last week, just because he sees the data and he knows what’s coming.
Tony Nash
So what is a hot CPI number to you?
Albert
I think anything above what the consensus is, whether it’s even 0.1 or .2, anything that’s sticky in the core CPI is going to be hot.
No, I mean, I was hoping for a specific magnitude, you know what I mean? As a trader, I’m like, how much higher is he expecting? And he was anything higher and I was like, 8%, 9%, 10%, what do we like? That’s all. I’m very interested. I think he’s on the absolute right track.
Albert
It’s hard because the VLS has been using different calculations and methodologies to calculate CPI. They just changed the way they weigh it, so they’re trying to keep it within a reasonable amount. But when you’re looking at fertilizers and fertilizer companies like Mosaic, and then you have nat gas spiking and then wheat spiking today, either that’s Russia ramping up military affairs in Ukraine, or there’s a hot CPI number coming, my opinion, or both.
Tony Nash
Okay. How much of a factor is like the earthquake in Turkey? Or is any of that a factor?
Albert
That’s a huge factor, Tony, because that’s going to start cutting off, that’s going to start up cutting oil supply, and that’s one of the prime components of inflation. And I’ll let Tracy get onto the details of that. But that’s one in many variables that we’re going to start looking at.
Tony Nash
Okay, when you say inflation 2.0 is coming, are you looking at say, Q2 or something when that will kind of reemerge or what’s your timing on that?
Albert
I’m thinking Q2 at this point. Originally I thought it would be in September or October, but I think the timeline definitely come faster.
Tony Nash
Okay, so what’s driving that is largely kind of energy and ag? Is that..
Albert
Energy, ag, and specifically just the market just being just rallying relentlessly, it just won’t go down. And that’s spurring commodities. Copper, oil, you name it, wheat, grains, everything.
Tony Nash
Okay, if I understand you correctly, just to reiterate what you said. We have more money going into the money supply because of the spending from the TGA that’s offsetting QT. And that money in the money supply is going to people who are driving up commodity prices, driving up equity markets, and potentially driving up real estate. Right. Because we saw some real estate numbers this past week that were not discouraging. Right. I mean, real estate isn’t dying like many people thought right now. And mortgage rates are generally kind of going down. So it seems like we have money going into those things, which is kind of the opposite of what the Feds here are trying to achieve.
Albert
Yeah, the mortgage rate ticks down just a little bit and all of a sudden the spurs on buying. So everything that the Fed has been trying to do is just not happening. Labor, housing, stocks, everything, literally everything.
Tony Nash
Okay, and so how much longer can Yellen use the TGA, does she have unlimited capacity there?
Albert
No, she doesn’t. And Congress can definitely put on oversight on that. But she started off in… Well started off, but she had about 160 billion per month just prior to the midterms. But now she’s down to about 50, 60. Yeah, but that’ll get replenished in April when the tax money comes in for the use.
Tony Nash
Okay, so it will be muted in Feb-March. But she can go guns blazing again in April.
Albert
And this is part of the negotiations with the budget, with the Republicans and the Democrats is trying to limit what she can do with the TGA at the moment. They won’t say it publicly, but they’re certainly trying to.
Tony Nash
Okay, very interesting. Okay, so for those of you guys out there, check out the treasury general account and just see what’s out there, I think that would be really interesting to look into. Okay. Anything else on this, Albert? Is inflation 2.0? Is it going to hit the US or hit, say, Europe or Asia or where do you think?
Albert
I think Asia and Australia is up first for inflation and then leaking over the United States. Obviously I don’t think we’re going to see 9.9 prints on the CPI, but steady 6-7. We definitely see that.
Tony Nash
Okay, great. All right. And then do you think that tapers off in say, Q4 or something like that?
Albert
I think so. I think it’ll start tapering off again. I think it’s going to be in a cycle.
Tony Nash
Okay, great. All right, so we just put out our I just tweeted out our Complete Intelligence CPI print expectations for the year and we think on average we’re going to be about 5.3% for the year. So we’re probably a little bit below your expectations. All right, Albert, thanks very much. I really appreciate that.
Albert
Thanks.
Tony Nash
Tony, let’s move on to you. When we spoke before this discussion, you talked about market chaos like you enjoy it. Are you having fun with this?
Tony Greer
Yeah, I am. This is the kind of trading that benefits, a more active trader, I think, like me, and somebody that’s not afraid to get flat things and take advantage of what looked like absurd price opportunities in the immediate term and things like that. So, yeah, I’m having a good time with this, Tony. I really am.
Tony Nash
That’s great. Can you talk us through kind of… You seem to indicate that you’re pretty bullish on metals and oil, so can you help us through that? And let’s look at metals first. I’ve got a chart for copper up and that price has obviously come down recently. But why are you so bullish on metal? Is copper included?
Tony Greer
Yeah. So let’s go right into it, Tony. The copper is definitely included. What got me so bullish was last year, I remember spending the whole entire second half of 2022 watching copper pound 6500 on the LME. Right? And for me, that equates to the 2017 and 2018 peak in copper, from which point it failed and faded lower and then traded down below 5k during the lockdown. So we saw the big spike to 11k, where everybody thought copper was going to the moon.
Tony Greer
All of that was essentially the lead in to the Biden Administration. That was the lead into the Biden administration. The pivot to electronic vehicle was that big copper rally to 11k and it consolidated there for the entirety of 2021. Then in 2022, copper backed off and pounded the highs from 2018 at 6500, held, and got back up above its moving averages. So when you see that and it coincides with another fairly tight physical market, another backward dated commodity, another commodity where inventories are nosediving, so you’ve got the supply side really on your side. The sort of argument against that is that China is storing and taking a lot of copper off of inventory.
Tony Greer
And my response to that is if they’re taking it off inventory, they’re probably not going to sell it anytime soon, so I don’t have to worry about it. That’s kind of the sort of one basic slant of my metal bullishness, right?
Tony Greer
And the other side of it I have in my mind, I’m fairly convinced that the dollar is going to be on a path lower this year. If you notice last year, she peaked at the Bank of England intervention when the guilt market came apart, and then she formed a lower high when Dollar-Yen got to 150 and the Bank of Japan showed up and said, “hold on, hold on, hold on. You guys kill it.” You know what I mean? That was an absolutely inexplicable FX rally that people haven’t seen in decades.
Tony Greer
So with those two central banks at the top, Tony, a curl down below the moving averages, and coincidentally, with the backdrop of two stories, number one, central bank digital currency story seems to be gaining traction. Whether we like it or not, whether it’s good for us or not, I feel like we’re going to have those and that’s going to detract from the purchasing power of the dollar again.
Tony Greer
And then you’ve got the story where it seems like Russia, Saudi Arabia, China, the rest of the BRICS are very interested in starting their own commodity markets, priced in their own currencies.
Tony Nash
Don’t get Albert started on that.
Tony Greer
Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, I don’t know if that’s a fair topic for discussion and maybe he may be a perma petrol dollar and that’s fair too. I don’t know. But I see that as a story, as sort of deteriorating credibility in the dollar, certainly. And that’s just the way I’m leaning. And it’s not something my money is where my mouth is. The dollar for me is a barometer that tells me how much wind am I going to have in my commodity sales. So I do not have any risk on in the dollar.
Tony Nash
Okay, we should actually come back and talk about that at some point in detail. Sorry, Tracy. You were saying?
Tracy
I was going to say we should also factor into this conversation the fact that we’ve had the lack of capex in the mining industry as far as the metals are concerned. That is equal to the same lack of capex that we’ve had in, say, the oil industry. So that definitely factors into the situation as well when you’re trying to transition to EVs, EV charging stations and all of these metals, even windmills as far as copper is concerned, et cetera. The mining industry again, I don’t know how you feel about that, but I just want to kind of throw that in there.
Tony Greer
Couldn’t agree more.
Albert
The only thing I have to say about the dollar moved down and up is I do agree with Tony that I think the dollar will probably go down a little bit, probably 97, 98. Right. But unfortunately, if inflation comes back, they’re going to have to use the dollar to kick it in the rear so we could see a 97-96 and then go right back up to 105 as they try to fight inflation again. It’s certainly possible. This is going to be a topsy turvy of a year no matter which way you look at it, whether it’s going to be dollar up, dollar down, commodities up, down. It’s just going to be all about the Fed and what intervention they do with inflation.
Tony Greer
It’s nonlinear chaos. Right. The curve.
Tracy
Yeah.
Albert
But this is great for a trader, for a trading. You want to see volatility.
Tony Nash
Very good. Okay, Tony, let’s let’s move into oil then. You’re also seem to be very bullish crude and and we have a tweet from you from Jan. 17 talking about crude going through its 50 day moving average and so on and so forth, talking about some serious muscle in crude markets. So can you talk us through that as well?
Tony Greer
Yeah, so that’s strictly a technical look. And to me, oil continues to make bottom formations and fail. Right? That’s what it keeps doing. We keep seeing an inverted head and shoulders, and then it kinda break the moving averages, and then we see another inverted head and shoulders. That’s even shallower than the last one because they can’t pound it any lower, and that can’t break the moving averages and we back off. And now we’ve got another situation where we’ve got another pattern that’s extremely bullish, where we just had the recent low fall between the last two lows, Tony.
Tony Greer
And that’s a little bit of tea leaves, but that formation is called a wiggle, and we haven’t traded lower since we put in that low. That was between those two lows, if you notice. And so now we’re attacking the 100 day moving average. I mean, this could be it. I walked into this year saying technically, I’m not going to miss out on the trade where crude oil goes through the 50 day, the 100 day, the 200 day, and keeps going, right? That’s the trade I’ve got a bullseye on. And if I have to stop myself out of it ten times, I’m going to be in the 11th time, I can guarantee you. So that’s how I’m looking at the world.
Tony Greer
From the supply side, the driver to me has been gasoline demand. Quite honestly, gasoline demand globally is sort of everybody’s concerned about the recession now. Not concerned about recession. I’ve traded through dozens of recessions and I have noticed that many of them don’t put a major dent in gasoline demand. So I feel like we’re set up for that type of move again, where we have steady gasoline demand. We’re able to keep this crack spread elevated at a $30 to $50 level, where they used to be eight to $12. Right. That’s the margin that a refiner makes for splitting barrels of crude into jet fuel and diesel. So with that crack spread and remaining elevated, the rest of the curve remaining backwardated, although that’s another trip that’s going to be non linear and wacky. But with inventories largely diving below five-year average inventories across the board, the demand for diesel, the demand for jet fuel. Demand for diesel was last year. This year, it seems like demand for jet fuel is really coming back quite a bit. So I just see a great supply side story, a fairly good demand side story, and I see resource nationalism everywhere I look, and that’s generally positive for crude oil.
Tony Greer
So when you line all of that up, the stars align with the technical picture. When we do eventually go skipping through those moving averages, the stage is set for it not to come back. I don’t know if that’s going to happen, but as a trader, I’m going to put my chips in that circle and see what happens.
Tony Nash
Sounds very solid. Tracy, I see you agreeing pretty violently. What else do you have to add there?
Tony Greer
Yeah, I want to hear what you’re adding, Tracy.
Tracy
No, I absolutely agree. When we talk about the supply side and the demand side, we really have to take a look at China. And I know we keep talking about the China opening story, but if we do really look at mobility data and I posted a couple of charts on this today, mobility data is up. Right. And then you also have what I think is more important is if you look at flight data and jet fuel demand, which is up once again, because we know that for Chinese New Year, we had a lot of domestic demand increase, but what we’re really looking for is international demand increase. Right. And so we’ve recently seen China flights to Hong Kong increase in full because that flight pattern was shut down. And so I think this is going to be a major forecast, and we have to realize that China has been drawing down on their stocks locally. Right? And so eventually they’re going to have to rebuy on the international market. If they’ve been depending on the stocks that they accrued since they’ve been shut down over the last year, if they’re pulling down those stocks. China is one country that is not the US.
Tracy
Let’s put it that way. They do not want their SPR to go to zero, all right? They really depend on this. And so because they’ve had to draw down on their domestic stocks, I would be looking for them to start buying on the international market again, especially when they’re getting really cheap crude oil right now from Russia. They would start buying.
Tony Nash
When do you think that is?
Tracy
I think now. They are buying now. I’ll post some charts on Twitter again, but according to Bortex data, there is a lot of seaborne crude going to China right now. We know that they get a lot of natural gas domestically through pipeline, and they’re expanding those pipelines, but realistically, crude oil is still seaborne, and so we can track that.
Tony Nash
Okay, interesting.
Albert
Yeah. Tony a lot of people sit there and criticize it like, well, China has been open and they’re not doing anything, and blah, blah, blah. But it’s not a black or white thing with China. I mean, they’re staggering their opening. They’re not dumb, because if they open just full speed ahead, they’d have a commodity inflation issue even worse than the United States would. So they are buying. And I agree with Tony with the oil bull market case, and I agree with Tracy. The supply side demand side is heavy. The Chinese are reopening and buying still. And I think oil goes to minimum 110 this year. Minimum.
Tony Nash
I love it when ours says, I agree with Tony because I’m not used to hearing that. But I know he’s talking about you, Tony Greer.
Tony Greer
That’s fine looking, Tony. Beautiful part. Yeah. The beautiful part about this market, Tone, is that you can find the opposite side of your trade. You just got to open your eyes and ears, right?
Tracy
That’s what you really need to do, because if you have a thesis, you really want to hear the opposite side. Right?
Tony Nash
Tell me about that. What is the downside thesis for oil? What is that downside thesis?
Tony Greer
Drill, baby, drill.
Albert
That’s not politically viable.
Tracy
Which is not going to happen. Which is not going to happen.
Tony Greer
Right. So that’s why you say you can get annoyed at what’s going on or you can make moves in the market, right. You can buy the energy complex and buy oil because that’s the direction it’s naturally going to go if they’re going to try to put this electric vehicle squeeze on by 2030. Right? I mean, that’s almost necessary. And almost the necessary trade is for the Bloomberg Commodity Index to go up 40% from here. If we’re going to fill all these orders to build battery packs and battery power all over the world.
Albert
The only the only other downside for oil is if the government starts playing around in oil futures and trying to sell it down just to keep it relatively safe on the inflation front, which they did.
Tony Greer
It was remarkably effective. It was remarkably effective. What they did with the SPR, you have to say, whether we like it or not, they knocked 30, $40 off the price.
Albert
It wasn’t just the SPR, though. They were sitting there selling down in oil futures in the market.
Tony Greer
They have a president’s working group that’s allowed to do that. I’m sure they are.
Albert
They do.
Tony Nash
Free market capitalism. You got to love it, right?
Albert
Yeah.
Tony Greer
Well, free market, political-driven capital.
Albert
Well, this is what Tony was mentioned this is what Tony was talking about when he said nationalizing commodities and whatnot. Of course they’re inflationary effects, but the governments only care about short term. What’s going to make my voters happy for the next election in six months? That’s all they care about.
Tracy
It’s kick the can theory, right? The Fed does this all the time. We see central banks do this all the time. Why not governments, right?
Tony Nash
Yes. Okay, guys, let’s move on to crude oil, specifically. Tracy, on Friday, we saw Russia announce plans to cut production to 500,000 barrels a day. Brent rose on the news. And I’m really curious. What is Russia producing right now? So are they at that volume capacity? And what does that mean for the crude quota and the price cap?
Tracy
Well, Russia is already producing at their quota according to the OPEC. The thing is, their OPEC quota and I won’t get into the logistics of this, but their OPEC quota is a lot of condensate oil, not straight oil. But aside from those details, we have to go in fact, Russia Euros is trading literally between $40 and $45 right now as we are speaking today on Friday. The the what date is this? I just want to make sure some people the 10 February. And so I think that you have to you know, I think what Russia is trying to do right now is try to bump up the price of oil for themselves, because I think if oil prices are higher for them, even though they are supplying less, they’re going to make more money regardless. I also think that this puts a thorn in the side to the west, because they’re trying to bump up oil prices. When Western nations are trying to push down oil prices. Right. They don’t want to see inflation go higher. And energy is a big part of that, even though central banks don’t realize that. But we have to, you know, it is a big part of the inflation factor.
Tracy
And so what I think they’re trying to do is basically say, I’m going to be a thorn in your side. We’re going to kick up oil prices. I’m also going to benefit myself because oil prices are going to go higher for me. And maybe they reach the cap $60. They’re well below then. You know, they’re still making more money with reduced volumes.
Tony Nash
Okay, so Euro trades at $20 discount, right, at this point.
Tracy
To the price cap.
Tony Nash
Right. But who are they hurting, aside from, say, India and China and a few other countries that are their traditional allies?
Tracy
Well, even if that price went up of your rails, at this juncture, China and India are still getting great deals, right? At $60 a barrel, you’re still getting a great deal. Right. You’re $20, $30 below what Brent and WTI are trading at. And so I don’t think that really matters to them. As far as am I going to lose China and India as customers, I don’t think that’s even a concern of theirs because they realize that their oil is trading well below everybody else.
Tony Nash
So I guess if they’re going to have the same customers, the China India customers generally, why does it matter? Aside from… Why does it matter to Brent that Russia has raised or capped off their production? If it’s going to go to the same markets anyway? I’m just curious. Why does it matter to the non-Euros crude?
Tracy
Because you’re taking barrels off the market, and that is the only thing the market looks at. How many barrels are you taking off the market? If you’re taking 500,000 barrels per day off the market, then these other that’s 500 barrels per day off the market.
Tony Nash
Sorry, what do they have said this before? What are they producing now?
Tracy
They’re at about 10.5, but again, that includes condensate. It’s not exactly 10.5 million barrels of oil per day.
Tony Nash
Okay.
Albert
Basically, how’s the earthquake in Turkey affecting things on the supply side?
Tracy
All right, so if we look at saline ports, we’ve taken 8885 barrels per day off the market as well. Almost a million barrels per day off the market from that specific port. That specific port was supposed to be down for two to three days. That’s looking like a lot longer at this junction.
Tony Nash
Okay.
Tracy
That’s also affecting global markets.
Tony Nash
Okay. So between Russia and the Turkey earthquake, there’s a real impact on markets?
Tracy
Absolutely.
Tony Nash
Okay.
Albert
And of course they’d probably take advantage of it. Yeah, that’s the way things work in that part.
Tony Nash
Of course. Of course. Tracy, we had some viewer questions about natgas. There were probably four of them on Twitter. What new insights do you have in natgas over the last couple of weeks?
Tracy
Well, as far as natgas is concerned, everybody’s asking when is this market going to bottom? Right? Because it’s been just a disaster since summer. We’ve seen like over 40% decline and in my opinion, really what we should be looking at right now, I think we’ll probably consolidate down here for a while. I think what we should be looking for is going into summer because what I think it’s going to happen is that we’re going to see China demand increase because they’re coming back online and cargoes that were bound for the EU will probably go to China now. They’ll outbid the EU because EU is basically full at this juncture, right. So they don’t really need the cargoes. Those cargoes can move to Asia. But during the summer, what we may see happen is increase. And we got very lucky with the EU as far as winter was concerned. And what I think will happen is during summer, if we have a particularly hot summer, air conditioning rises, that means nat gas increases. And so what I think we could see is somewhere this summer we see an increase in prices again because you have to realize that last year EU still had 50% of their capacity filled from Russia before everything went offline. That’s gone.
Tony Nash
Right.
Tracy
I would be looking towards, more towards this summer if you’re looking for kind of price increase. And generally right now I think that we’re probably going to see some consolidation down in this 2, 2.50 area, which is where it’s traditionally traded.
Tony Nash
My neighbors in Texas need more money, so let’s get that pumping.
Tracy
But the thing is that at this, the producers in Texas that their costs are higher, that production is going to drift if we stayed up long enough. So you have to think about that as far as production is concerned anyway, I mean, we are in surplus right now, but that may not last forever.
Tony Nash
Great. Okay. Very good. That’s really good. Thank you for that. Hey Tony, what does next week look like for you? I know we’ve got CPI coming out. What are you looking at for the week ahead?
Tony Greer
I’m thinking like Carl icon, to be honest with you. Tony. No, I’m serious. If you saw his options play, I guess he’s got, I guess it’s 5 billion notional of options that are struck at 40, 50 for next Friday. If you ask me, he’s looking at number, he’s looking at a couple of things. He’s looking first at I think the bond market, the credit markets in terms of the bonds and break evens in terms of yields and break evens trading higher in the last week, they have both vaulted off of the lows. So there’s been a clear turnaround in market based inflation perception. So I think that he sees that and looks on the calendar and sees CPI and PPI next week, knows that inflation is not linear in any direction and maybe is making a bet on and maybe it’s just a hedge, but maybe investing that money on the idea that we have an upside surprise in any of the economic data. The bond market tanks, stocks tank. If rates go higher, they’re going to mash big tech again and he’s probably going to be in the money and his 40-50 puts.
Tony Greer
So that’s how I’m looking at it. I’m looking to see if my portfolio of trades that I’ve got on can weather that type of storm and if I’m out of the way in certain places, if I should join him in certain places. That’s the way I’m thinking about next week, man. I’m trying to stay alive.
Tony Nash
Sounds very exciting. Tracy, what are you looking for next week?
Tracy
Continue, obviously watching the commodities markets, metals, energy, watching China data, the mobility data, flight data, see how this is moving along and we’ll see how that.
Tony Nash
We see a higher CPI, what does that do for crude prices, do you think? Do you think there’s a direct impact?
Tracy
I think you’re going to see crude prices go higher, yeah.
Tony Greer
Tone, what, the dynamics…
Tracy
Counterintuitive, right?
Tony Greer
Yeah. It’s kind of like the market speak to each other, right. Like a dynamic that we definitely saw along the way of the commodities rally as rates went higher last year. Right. Call it the whole period going into the Russia Ukraine invasion, right. It was oil straight up, but it was kind of like the credit market. I called two year yields last year the bat signal, and I named them that because they were getting out ahead of commodity inflation. We were having weeks where the bond market was getting shellac and there wasn’t much going on in the commodity markets, but all of a sudden they would pick up at the end of the week. And I think it was a lot of the time, like the bond market signaling inflation here. The commodity markets are going to go up. And I think that that’s kind of a sort of a cadence that established itself. And so it’s going to be really interesting to see how that unwinds.
Tony Nash
Fantastic. Okay. That’s a really great explanation, Tony. Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much. Have a great weekend and have a great week ahead. Thank you.
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