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In this BFM podcast episode, the hosts interview Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, who explains the sudden downturn in US markets and predicts a slowing rate of rise for the Nasdaq in 2024. Nash also discusses the potential outperformance of finance and banking sectors over cyclicals and forecasts a lackluster year for 2024.
Additionally, the segment covers developments from the UN Climate Change Conference, COP28, and its long-term impact on energy markets. Tony highlights the challenges faced by middle-income and emerging markets in transitioning to green technologies amidst fiscal constraints and higher interest rates. The discussion also touches on the disruptions in the Red Sea region’s supply chain and their potential economic impacts, as well as the positive revenue forecast and strong performance of Micron, a leading US memory chip maker.
Transcript:
BFM
For some thoughts on what’s moving international markets, we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Thanks for joining us. Very quickly, can maybe you help us understand why US markets are down quite significantly this morning? I thought it was a Christmas rally all the way up to the end of the year. What explains the markets being in the red?
Tony Nash
The old Santa rally? Well, markets were doing great until about 1:30 Eastern time, and then they just fell off a cliff and we closed in the red. Even things like Nasdaq, up until about 1:30 PM, Nasdaq had been up six % for the month, so it was doing extremely well. Then things turned and I think there may be some whispers of an event coming or there’s fear that the Fed isn’t going to be as doveish as was said. I think possibly going into the break, people are really thinking about how much risk they want to have on over the holiday.
BFM
But what does that mean for, I guess, the end of the year performance? Especially if we look at the Nasdaq 100, it is up a whopping 41 % for the year. Are we going to see a repeat of this outperformance next year? Or do you think we’re at the zenith of the euphoria?
Tony Nash
Are we at the zenith? I don’t know. Certainly, the rate of rise will slow. I seriously doubt we’re going to see things fall off dramatically in, say, January. But just to give you an example, we forecast markets, as you know, and currencies and stuff. We had forecast a 5.65% rise in Nasdaq for December. Up until 1:30 today, it had risen 6%. We’re pretty good at forecasting that. Our average expectation for Nasdaq in 2024 is 14,746, which is a fall from now. I would expect we’ll start out Q1 fairly okay, but through the year, the appeal of Nasdaq is going to decline. As people accept that hire for longer is here to stay, which doesn’t mean rates are going to continue to rise, but they’re not going to fall for six cuts or whatever, 10 cuts that some people are saying.
BFM
Tony, it wasn’t solely growth stocks, which captured the limelight. Now, cyclical names like Carnival Cruisers and GE saw their share prices surge 117 and 86% respectively in 2023. Now, are investors likely to see more symmetric returns coming from growth and defensive companies next year?
Tony Nash
It’s unlikely, sadly. We saw companies expand margins with cost inflation as an excuse to justify price rises as incomes grew and government cash handouts accumulated. But we really saw that stuff stop in 2023, second quarter, third quarter with inflation abating. Now, inflation abating doesn’t mean prices falling. It just means that the rate of price rises is slowing. Pay rises are unlikely to continue and consumers will likely have to tighten their belts. As that happens, cyclicals will settle. Things like travel and tourism, things like GE will have to settle a bit. The returns really depend on your risk appetite. So where to look? I would say look at things like finance and banking, some natural resources like miners. I wouldn’t necessarily go directly in commodity prices, but I would look at some of those guys who process natural resources, those sorts of things.
BFM
Tony, overall, what’s your investment outlook and advice for 2024 when it comes to asset allocation then? Because bonds were very volatile this year. Is it going to continue next year? Equity surprisingly did much better despite the talk of a recession that has yet to materialize. What’s your recommendation?
Tony Nash
Yeah, I think if you look at the tenure, for example, I think it’s hard to see the tenure much higher than, say, 4% over the next few months at least. Sentiment is really doveish or has been really doveish. The words out of the Fed, they haven’t completely walked back Powell’s very doveish briefing last week. People still believe that the economy has a way to run and that rates will come down dramatically. I actually think the ’24 is probably going to be a pretty lackluster year. I think after the excitement of the last few years, I think we could all do for a little less excitement for a period of time. But the Fed has really been trying to crush volatility and cap yields. They’re trying to take the risk out of the market, but not have the market get out of control.
BFM
Can we take a look at some of the year and themes that have been circulating around? And this really comes from the UN Climate Change Conference that took place in December COP28. It did stop short of calling for a phase out of fossil fuels, opting instead for a transition away from them and specifically in energy systems. How are markets responding to this development? And what do you think are the implications of investors in the energy sector? Is this more likely to be a long-term development rather than a short term one?
Tony Nash
Absolutely a long-term development. COP28 paved the way for a much longer path to fully green feedstocks. They even talked about coal and released some of the pressure on coal power generation. Part of the problem here is higher interest rates. Higher interest rates are making these very costly green projects much more expensive. The government bureaucrats who are really pushing this stuff have to find a way to temper expectations for that green spending without completely surrendering to the fiscal constraints. A lot of these, say, middle income and emerging markets that are pushing green projects or having been pushed on them, this is where budgets are super tight. Look at a country like Sri Lanka where they have an IMF support. There’s push for green technologies, but they just can’t afford to do it. A lot of countries are looking at balancing that out and trying to figure out how they continue to move toward a greener future, but balancing out the fiscal reality of higher interest rates and budget constraints.
BFM
Now, we’ve been reading news about disruptions in their supply chain, especially in the Red Sea region. Now, geopolitical tensions have caused shipping companies to divert over $30 billion worth of cargo away from the Red Sea? What are the potential economic impacts, especially on the price of oil from disruptions on global supply chains?
Tony Nash
Yeah, it really depends on the horizon and how long this is going to last. I would expect this to be a relatively short-term event. If it is a relatively short-term event, then it’s pretty inconvenient. It’s pretty inconvenient, but it’s not really all that costly because we have shipping rates that are pretty low, we have fuel rates that are pretty low. The impact, aside from delays, and in the West, we’re at the end of the holiday season or we’re mid holiday season, but things shipping have already shipped in terms of finished goods. So the impact on consumers isn’t going to be felt like this is… If they’re going to do this, this is probably a really good time of year to do it because everything’s in shops.
BFM
Tony, thanks so much for speaking to us. And Merry Christmas to you. We look forward to catching up in the new year. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead, commenting there on the shipping disruptions in the Red Sea, as well as what the impact might be on oil prices also coming up out of COP28 and just the developments that could happen in the energy landscape.
BFM
I wonder whether 2024 is going to be the year of the Magnificent Seven, right? It was so much talked about in 2023, these seven stocks that literally lifted up the Nasdaq and, of course, the S&P 500, of course, the seven A, Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet, Amazon, Nvidia, Meta, and Tesla.
BFM
I feel like it’s getting longer and longer. It used to be the fang stocks, and then it was like FAG, and then now it’s the Magnificent Seven.
BFM
Yeah, it went from 1A to double As, right? And now it’s a whole new acronym. So I don’t know, are they going to add a new Magnificent 8, 9, 10, or is it just going to be down to maybe that magnificent three, because some haven’t done so well. For example, Tesla is the one that actually hasn’t performed at all. That surprised me. But talking about, I think overnight, there was a big US talk that came out with the results, the biggest chip maker there, which is actually Micron, and they did better than expected.
BFM
That’s right. Micron issued a strong revenue forecast for the current period and reporting for the first quarter results topped Wall Street estimates. This really sent the shares of Micron surging about four % in extended trading. This is as data center demand is making up for a slowly recovering PC and smartphone market.
BFM
In the fiscal first quarter that ended on 13th of November, Micron saw a 16 % year-on-year rise in its revenue to $4.7 billion. Loss per share came in 95 cents, which was better than what analysts’ estimates are. And now the largest US maker on memory chips expects fiscal second quarter revenue to be between $5.1 to $5.5 billion, versus an average estimate of $4.99 billion.
BFM
Okay, so this pales in comparison with NVIDIA, which also does chips, but of course, NVIDIA is all about artificial intelligence. It’s the number one proxy if you want to write that theme. But Micron, on a year to date basis, still up 54 %. Now, does the street like this? Because it hasn’t been doing so well in the past in terms of the results. Are we at the trough? And the indications are yes. So unsurprisingly, there are 30 buys, seven holds, two sales. Consensus target price for Micron is $85.25. During after-market hours, actually, the stock did trade up eight %, so indicating that I think investors are going to be more optimistic just based on the guidance that the company is giving.
BFM
All right, it is 7:17 AM. Let’s head into some messages, but we’ll come back to cover the top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned, BFM 89.9.
The CEO of Complete Intelligence, Tony Nash, spoke about the recent financial events in the market. In regards to Meta, Tony mentioned that the worst for Meta’s share price is over, but job cuts are still to come. Although Meta beat revenue estimates, ad impressions rose by 20%, but the price per impression fell by 22%. Tony also discussed the recent Fed interest rate hike by 25 bips, which was expected and the market welcomed it. Tony says there are likely to be at least two more rate hikes before the current tightening cycle is over. He also mentions that the market is excited but will take a closer look at the statement once they have a better understanding.
Tony also mentioned that there is some irrationality in the market because corporate earnings have been disappointing, but investors are bought off by the stock buybacks. The oil companies, Chevron and Exxon, made windfall profits due to cheap oil and fat refining margins. The refineries were operating at 94% capacity and have crack spreads and refining margins way above normal. The oil and gas companies have not invested in infrastructure since 2014, due to governments and media bullying over ESG and cost. The only option for them is to return the profits to shareholders through stock buybacks.
Transcript
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. BFM 89.9. Good morning. You are listening to the morning run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning and Chong Tjen San. It is 7:05 A. M. On Thursday the 2 February. We were off yesterday because of Federal Territories Day, but we are back to bring you through the rest of the week. In half an hour, we’re going to discuss the probability of a Trump 2024 presidential run. But as always, let’s kick start the morning with a recap on how global markets closed overnight.
BFM
All US markets ended higher as the market shared the Fed’s 25 basis point rate increase. The dollar was up marginally by 0.2%, S&P 500 up by 1%, and the Nasdaq was up by 2%. Asian markets, they were all in the green. The Nikkie was up by 0.1%. Hang Seng was up by 1%, Shanghai Composite up by 0.9%. The Straits Times Index, it was up by 0.4%. But the FBMKLC, it was closed for Federal Territory Day
BFM
As mentioned and for some insights into what’s moving markets this morning, we’re going to be speaking to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Thanks as always for joining us. Now, markets rallied on the back of the Fed, raising interest rates by 25 bips. But before we get into that, I would want to talk about some of the corporate earnings that we saw overnight, namely coming from Meta. The markets were also quite happy with what came up there, up 18% in after hours trading on the back of better than expected sales, do you think this is the worst over for Meta?
Tony
I do think the worst in terms of share price is over. I don’t think their job cuts are over. I think they’re learning how to operate in this environment. So the last two to three years has been pretty easy for a tech company as people were kind of trapped inside and didn’t really have a lot to do. They looked for things online and ad revenue was great for Meta and ad driven companies, but what we saw in there, although they beat revenue estimates, they beat their guide by almost 3%. They announced a $40 billion share buyback, all that’s great news. And the stocks up almost 20% after hours. But keynote in their earnings release, Ad Impressions rose by 20%. Remember, they’re an ad driven business. Ad Impressions rose by 23%, but price per Impression fell by 22%. So they’re not able to push price. They’ve had to drop their price and raise their volume, which is the opposite of what we’re seeing with a lot of retailers and other firms in the US where they can actually push price in light of and accept lower volumes at higher prices.
BFM
And Tony, as expected, the Fed raise rates by 25 bips. Was this in line with what you were expecting, and are we close to the end of the current tightening cycle?
Tony
Yeah, you know, I think pretty much everyone expected 25. There was a slight chance of 50, but everyone pretty much expected 25. The market welcomed it very happily, and they’re still thinking there’s only one rate rise left. But Chair Powell made it very clear that there are a couple of more rate hikes to get to that level we think is “appropriately restrictive.” Those are his words. So we’re looking for at least two more rate hikes before this is over. And the Fed is also going likely to accelerate their quantitative tightening. Okay? So that’s taking assets off of their balance sheet, which is basically hoovering up the money supply in the US. So the market will get tighter. And do we think we’re at the end? We don’t think we’re at the end. The interest rates aren’t the only tool they can use. So the market’s very excited right now, almost a relief. But I think as they look through his statement in detail, I think they’ll take a second look at expectations.
BFM
So let’s build on that. Tony, so you’re basically saying that because when I look at how markets have performed on a year to date basis, S&P up 7.5%, NASDAQ up 12%, this very much on the back of the Fed, going from a hawk to a dove. Do you think that there is some irrationality there?
Tony
I do, actually, because, you know, if you look at corporate earnings announced so far, they’re very disappointing. And so investors are expecting easy conditions to return so that underwhelming earnings are acceptable. So what did Facebook have to do? Their EPS underwhelmed by like 55%. Okay. They had to issue $40 billion in stock buybacks. So investors are basically bought off, and that’s why the stock is rising. But many other people reporting are not seeing the sales that they expected or didn’t see the sales they expected in Q4. And their costs, meaning the cost of employees and raw materials, these sorts of things. Cost of employees are up. Raw materials are down slightly, definitely year on year, but certainly quarter on quarter, they’re down slightly. But earnings are not what people had hoped for. And that’s the real problem we’re seeing in market. So the earnings picture is not reflecting the valuation picture.
BFM
Okay, so that may be the general picture, but if we zoom into oil companies or the two largest US oil companies, Chevron and Exxon, they made more money in 2022 than ever before, posting record earnings in their latest results. How are these windfall profits achieved? And I guess how sustainable is this going into the new year?
Tony
They were largely achieved on the back of cheap oil through the SPR releases and very fat refining margins. So we’ve had refineries in the US operating at about 94% capacity, which is way over what they’re designed for. And we have crack spreads and refining margins way above what is normal. So those refineries are booking profits at a record pace. And so what do they do? If you’re an oil and gas company and the government keeps bullying you over ESG and Cost, and media keeps bullying you over ESG and Cost, oil and gas companies have not invested in infrastructure in upstream or midstream since at least 2014. So if they invest in that, they’re going to be punished. So what do they do? They return it to shareholders. So you have a $75 billion buyback, because that’s really the only option they have. Otherwise, they’re going to get punished by governments, they’re going to get punished by media, and they’re going to get punished by investors. So they have to do this.
BFM
Okay, but let’s talk about OPEC Plus because there was a meeting, and I want to talk about oil prices, because the OPEC Plus Committee has recommended keeping crude production steady as the oil market awaits clarity. What does this then mean for prices? If I look at WTI, currently $77 a barrel, down 4.5%. What’s your view, Tony?
Tony
Well, I think OPEC is taking a lot of the excitement in markets for the past couple of months has been China opening. Ever since December, right? China is going to open and save us all. And that also hit crude markets. People looking at crude prices and going, oh, gosh, China is going to open. We’re going to see jet fuel and gasoline, petrol and other fuels consumption rise dramatically. Well, the opening has been slower than people expected in December, and it’s still not happening at the pace that many Westerners expected. And so I think OPEC is looking at crude consumption and draws from storage and saying, we just need to hold off on raising our level of production. We’re in a good zone with the price right now. We don’t see a dramatic impact. We expect recessions in the west, and we expect China to come back online slowly. So we’re not going to increase production right now. And so I think that’s the prudent thing to do. If I’m an oil producer, that’s what I’m doing, because I want demand to lead production increases. I want to see that people are going to use what I’m going to pull out of the ground, and I want to see pricing pressure before I agree to drill more.
BFM
Yeah, but, Tony, at the same time, what’s interesting to me is the US. Now, during the summer season, President Biden released its reserves, right? Because pump prices were just really very high. Doesn’t this change the equation? If I’m American now, wouldn’t I want to rebuild my reserves at this current level?
Tony
Well, yes and no. The SPR release was really done to get prices down for the US Midterm Elections. That’s really all it was about. Now the SPR is depleted dramatically, so the buying that will have to happen to refill the SPR will put upward pressure on prices. So I think we have to be really careful. If China is, let’s say in March, they start to come aggressively back online and the US starts buying to refill the SPR in Q2, then that’s an accelerator for crude prices in Q2and Q3. Right. So will Biden then beg OPEC again to raise their output? Maybe. China has already forward bought a lot of its crude supply. So if the US is going to choose to refill the SPR at elevated prices, it’s really not the brightest move.
BFM
Tony, thanks very much for speaking to us. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets, commenting there on the earnings report of Apple, if not Apple, I’m sorry, Meta. That just came overnight. Apple is to come. So we’re going to be watching out for that before the week ends.
BFM
Let’s turn our attention, though, to what’s happening over in India, where the Adani saga has really taken attention by storm. Gautam, Adani’s flagship firm, called off its 2.5 billion US dollar share sale in a dramatic reversal yesterday as a route sparked by US short seller Hindenburg. Research criticism wiped out more than $80 billion off the value of the Indian tycoon stocks.
BFM
And the plunge accelerated after Bloomberg News reported credit Suisse Group AG has stopped accepting bonds of Adani’s Group of companies as collateral for margin loans. Adani Enterprises was offering shares to investors at $38 to $40 a share, but the stock closed yesterday at $26.13, which is 31% below the bottom price of the pricing range.
BFM
I think let’s take a bit of a step back, right, in terms of how important Adani is to the Indian economy in its way. They are like one of the major producers of energy, and then we’re talking about cement. They are such a huge conglomerate and their fortunes have been really tied to the rise of Nadira Modi. Right. Because the two, the Adani and Modi, are supposedly very close. And so when Adani came back with this 413 page objection, the allegations are all untrue. He also Adani took the step of saying that you’re attacking India as a nation. And then Hindenburg said, look, this has nothing to do with nationalism. Right. You’re just a company where we are not comfortable with your numbers. And then it’s this back and forth. And what was amazing was the share sale was almost going to happen. And the economists reported this is allegedly that the five largest and richest families in India were going to bail this company out by participating in the share sale, but now it’s not happening.
BFM
That’s right. I mean, that came as a big surprise, the fact that they managed to get buyers who were willing to buy these shares at such a high price compared to what the market was having. So, as mentioned, you said, Jensen, they would be buying it at a loss. But yeah, Adani said that the company’s board felt that going ahead with this share issue would not be morally correct because of that big gap in what the prices are being sold for now.
BFM
Yeah, but it was really amazing. You will never get a scenario similar in, let’s say, in America, where the richest families bail out another rich family. Right. So that’s what the economists point out, that doing business in India is very, very different. But the share price, of course, down 45% on a year to date basis.
BFM
I really wonder what they can do to build up to the levels that they were before. I mean, maybe it’s not going to happen again. So something to watch, for sure. This has taken everyone, really by surprise. The twists and turns in the saga at 718 in the morning. We’re going to take a quick break and we’ll come back with more top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned to BFM 89.9.
BFM
You have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the BFM app.
The released Fed minutes show that most officials are backing a slower pace of interest rate hikes. Markets reacted positively but this is false optimism as the terminal Fed Funds Rate may eventually be higher. The 3Q reporting in the US is also coming to a close and 75% of corporates experienced downgrade in earnings. Have the cut in earnings by analysts been adequate or will there be further downside, with 2023 outlook still uncertain? For answers, we speak to Tony Nash, CEO, Complete Intelligence.
Transcript
BFM
BFM 89 Nine. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run at Thursday. It’s Thursday, the 24 November November Friday, junior, as we like to call it. Here. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning and Chong Tjen San. As always, let’s kickstart the morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.
All key US markets showed gains as most members of the Fed said the pace of rate hikes will slow down. So the Dow was up 0.3%. The S&P500 was up 0.6%, and Nasdaq was up 1%. In Asian markets, the Nikkei and Hang Seng was up by 0.6%. The China Composite was up by 0.3%. The Straits Times Index was down by 0.1%, and our very own FBMKLCI was up by 0.2%.
Joining us on the line now for more on what’s moving markets, we speak to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Hi, Tony. Good morning. Now, let’s start with just some reactions on the Fed minutes that were released. It showed that most officials are backing a slower pace of interest rate hikes, but that the terminal rate might need to be higher. What do you think? Are we seeing a relief rally? And is that sustainable in the short term?
Tony
Yeah, I think the ultimate destination is probably the same, but the pace of getting there is slower than many people thought a couple of weeks ago. So I think what it means is we’ll see more, say, 50 and 25 basis point hikes. That’s the expectation. It’s still possible we’ll see a 75 if Powell really pushes hard for December, but we’re still going to see a 5, 5.5 terminal rate, depending on really how things end up for CPI and PPI next month. But it’s just the pace and markets are more comfortable with a gradual adjustment to higher rates than the continued kind of shock treatment.
BFM
And Tony, the US reporting period is coming to a close. How would you assess the quality of corporate earnings release so far? How well have they tracked market expectations?
Tony
They’re OK, they’re pretty weak, actually. Compared to 2021, we had, I think, 25% earnings growth in ’21 about this time last year. They’re just over 3%. So it’s not even near where it was last year.
Something like 75% of companies are seeing estimates for their downgrade. So people expecting inflation to endure longer than they thought. If you remember a year ago, people were saying inflation was transitory, so they’re saying inflation will endure longer and rate hikes will continue.
So with credit tighter, businesses and consumers are not expected to spend as much.
So going forward, there is a fear that wallets will be more closed than they are now and earnings will continue to be tight.
BFM
Which just confuses me, Tony, because if the Fed stops their rate hikes at least decelerates the pace of it. And at the same time, corporate earnings aren’t going to be as robust as ever. Then why is the S&P500 above 4000 and the Dow Jones at 34,194 points? I mean, they’re just in fact, the Dow is only down 6% on a year to date basis and the S&P down 15%. Shouldn’t markets be actually more bearish than they are now?
Tony
Well, I think there are a couple of things happening there. I think first, there really is consumers have continued to spend and businesses have continued to spend in the US. Although we’ve seen economic growth slow dramatically, we’ve had spending continue to push forward. So if the Fed slows its tightening cycle, and keep in mind, they haven’t really started quantitative tightening, meaning getting things out of their balance sheet. They’re only, I think, $200 billion off of their high.
But if the Fed continues to tighten at an accelerated pace, then markets are worried. But again, if they slow it down, the feeling is that spending will move in stride. It won’t necessarily be too shaken up.
Also, on inflation, don’t forget inflation didn’t really start on an accelerated basis until November of ’21. So we had inflation, but fairly muted inflation then. And so what we get after November, well after this month, is what’s called a base effect.
So we’ll likely continue to see inflation rise, but not necessarily at the pace that it’s been over the past, say six to nine months. So does that mean inflation is peak? No, not at all. But it means the pace of the rise of inflation is likely going to slow on base effects.
So if that happens, we’ll have a lot of people declare victory over inflation, but I think that there is an expectation that that rate will slow as well.
BFM
Can you look at the prospects of retailers like Best Buy? We see Abercrombie and Fitch. These names are defying inflationary trends and higher rates to post better results than expected. So why has this sector been the exception to the norm?
Tony
Yes, the quick answer is most of those guys have been pushing price. So they’ve been passing along their higher labor and goods costs onto consumers.
Now they’ve been pushing price while sacrificing volume. So they’ve been pushing 8 to 10 to 15% price hikes in many cases. But they’ve had fewer transactions between one and say 6% fewer transactions.
Regardless, they’re earnings have risen. So they’re not as worried about fewer transactions. They’re focused on keeping their margins up.
And so when you look at retailers like Walmart, which has mixed, say, general goods and food, they’ve done very well. They had a very difficult Q2, but they did very well this past quarter.
Home Depot, which is a DIY store, has done very well because they pushed price Cracker Barrel has done very well.
Cracker Barrel. These are not these are not retailers that are at the high end of the market either. These are mid and even, say lower end companies, but they’re pushing price on the middle and lower end of the market.
Higher end of the market? They’re doing great. So it’s tough to be a consumer in this market because price definitely continues to be pushed and we expect price to continue to be pushed through probably Q2 of next year.
BFM
And Tony, with potentially slower pace of interest rate hikes, how do you expect the technology sector to do? Is there more pain to come for the likes of Amazon and Meta?
Tony
For sure. Amazon, Meta and technology companies generally do very well in very low interest rate environment, where the money is effectively free or negative real interest rates.
As you have to pay for that money, it becomes tougher for those companies to do well because their core investment is in technology. And we had things like Mark Zuckerberg at Meta really went off the rails with some of his spending and investment.
It’s not to say that the Metaverse investment is not ever going to happen, but much of that stuff really went way overboard. Same thing with, say, Amazon with some of their infrastructure investments and delivery investments.
So we do expect HP today, I think announce 6,000 jobs to be lost over the next, I don’t know, twelve months or something. So we do expect much more pain in tech. We expect that to continue until at least the end of Q1, if not a little bit further.
BFM
And Tony, let’s talk about oil because WTI for futures delivery in January, $77 a barrel. And we know that there’s an upcoming OPEC meeting in December. What are your expectations in terms of oil price then?
Tony
Yeah, it’s tricky, right? Because oil prices are kind of in that zone where a lot of people are comfortable. And so the question is, is this acceptable to OPEC members? So Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iraq and Kuwait have already come out and said they’re going to stick to the current plan, the current cuts that were already announced last month.
But we have things like the Russian price caps coming into play. And you know, our view is the price caps are pretty meaningless actually, because Europeans are pretty good at circumventing the kind of emotional embargoes they put in place.
I’m sorry to put it that way, but they put these laws in place and then they circumvent them pretty well. A lot of this is theater. So that’s not the price caps are not going to have as much of an impact as many people thought. So it’s possible if we get into next week and crude prices start coming back pretty strongly, or sorry, if we get into next week and crude prices are as weak as they are now, we may see a 500,000 barrel per day cut. I think that’s a possibility, but it’s likely they’ll stay on what’s already been announced.
BFM
Tony, thanks very much for speaking with us. And since it’s Thanksgiving eve. Happy Thanksgiving to you. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead.
All eyes, of course, on that all-important inflation number and how that will affect how the Fed raises hikes moving forward.
I think the key takeaway for me was he mentioned that 75% of corporates in the US had downgrades, which I feel it’s a good thing as it brings expectations lower and more in line with future expectations and it also gives perhaps some room to surprise on the upside.
Yeah, well, markets seem to be at crossroads, but a little bit cheered by the fact that the Fed isn’t going to raise rates as aggressively as they have in the past. But I want to keep my eye on corporate earnings. I think that if you see continuous downgrades by the analyst community, you see the messaging coming out of US corporates that things aren’t looking as rosy as they are, then it’s just going to be hard for the Dow, S&P500 to actually break through their current resistance levels. So I think it’s something we have to keep an eye on.
Investors were not impressed by results from Meta and Alphabet leading to a sell-off in tech stocks on Wall Street. We speak to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, to find out how results from Apple and Amazon set to come out soon might impact overall market sentiment.
Transcript
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, The Business Station.
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BFM 89 Nine. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Keith Kam. It’s 7:06am on Thursday, the 27 October a rather overcast Thursday morning. For now, perhaps we’ll see the sun come out a little bit later. As always, we’re kickstarting the morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.
BFM
It was a bit of a mixed day for what generally red though the Dow Jones on Wall Street, the Dow Jones ended marginally higher, that’s 0.01% barely changed. S&P 500 was down 0.7%. But the action was on the Nasdaq that closed 2% lower because of disappointing results from Meta and Alphabet. We’ve just got to wait for the Apple and Amazon results that will be out tonight US time. So we’ll be discussing that tomorrow. Early in the day, Asian markets were generally green. The Nikkei was up 0.7%, the Hang Seng was up 1%. The Shanghai Composite and Singapore’s STI, they were both 0.8% higher. And back home the FBM KLCI closed 0.7% up.
BFM
For some thoughts on what’s moving international markets, we have on the line with us Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony, thanks for joining us today. Now, notwithstanding overnight results, global equities led by US stocks have extended gains over the last week, avoid by the expectations that peak inflation has been reached. What do you think? Are they being too sanguine about inflationary pressures?
TN
I don’t necessarily think they’re being too sanguine. There are cases to be made that housing prices and wage growth have turned the corner. Goods price inflation has likely peaked, but there doesn’t necessarily mean that we’ll see prices decline. Regardless of what’s happening in the inflation environment. The Fed is going to raise rates in November, likely by 75 basis points and again in December. So the Fed typically lags inflation on both sides on the way up and on the way down and so they’re likely going to over tighten. Markets have largely factored in a 75 and 50 basis point hike over the next two months. So are they sanguine? I don’t know. I think if we start to see inflation really take a downward turn, then it could be a very good thing for all of us.
BFM
But Tony, the 75 basis point expected hike by the Feds comes at a time when a lot of analysts are also expecting recession to hit the US sometime sometime next year. Would there be some reassessment as we go along?
TN
Well, we’ve already had kind of negative economic growth for half a year, so we do need to see jobs come down. And with the tech earnings coming out, as you guys mentioned in the news segment, we expect tech companies to announce some pretty major layoffs before the end of the year.
BFM
Let’s get into that a little bit, Tony, in terms of tech results, I mean we did see Meta overnight, we’ve seen how Microsoft also came in below market expectations. What do you think this tells us about the direction of the tech sector moving forward, especially with this environment of rising interest rates and a looming global recession?
TN
Yeah, well, tech companies have overhired. They were hiring based on valuation, not necessarily based on revenue. And so now that their valuations have come down, they have excess staff and they need to clear the decks. And the productivity within the technology sector, although it sounds a little weird, the productivity is pretty low because they’ve had too many people. So as these companies come out and give pretty sad earnings reports, there’s going to be pushback from investors that they need to lay people off, and that will come out in the next couple of months. So we’ll see some of that. Now, if you compare that to, say, companies like Coca Cola and GM who beat the street, those companies have been able to pass on cost rises to their customers, so they’ve factored in cost rises to their price. Now, many of those companies saw volumes decline, but price rises more than made up for the volume decline. So they’ve beat expectations by raising price, in many cases by double digits.
BFM
Tony, we’re expecting Amazon and Apple results to come out tonight, and what we’ve seen from the previous results have sort of, well, dampened market sentiment, if you may, what are your expectations going forward?
TN
Yeah, I don’t think they’re going to be stellar results. I think Amazon had this, at least in the states, they had this kind of second prime day a couple of days ago to goose sales revenues for the quarter, which tells me that things are not stellar at Amazon, and so there are signs that things aren’t working out. The new iPhone is kind of a yarn for a lot of people, so it’s not necessarily pushing out. And so I think the expectations are for pretty mediocre results. So if they report in excess of expectations, then tomorrow will be a fantastic day in markets. But I don’t think that’s necessarily likely at this point.
BFM
All right, something we’re going to be keeping an eye on. Another thing to keep an eye on is the slew of indicators that are going to be coming out. We’ve got US GDP, durable goods, and initial jobless claims numbers. Which indicator are you paying the most attention to in terms of being a gauge of how well the economy is going?
TN
Yeah, one of the things that I always tell people to be careful of with some of these macroeconomic numbers is things like GDP. What’s being announced is what’s called a preliminary release. So they kind of have a sketch of what’s happening in the economy, but it’s not detailed. So when these GDP announcements come out and it’s the first release, it’s not really accurate. And those things can change by 50% or more in some cases. So GDP is not really something I look to. It’s kind of a headline, but it doesn’t really mean a whole lot.
TN
Durable goods is interesting because that tells me that people are investing in things, buying things that last a long time so that they can deliver new services or new products in, say, three to six months time. So that would tell me people are looking forward. So if durable goods is a bad number, then it tells me people are really just trying to take care of today and not investing in the future.
TN
Jobless claims. I don’t know. Sometimes it’s meaningful, sometimes it’s not. I think the sentiment around jobless claims is overhyped. The Fed is definitely watching jobless claims because they want to see wages and jobs come down. So with jobless claims, it’s one of those good news and bad news types of things. So we’re kind of hoping for a poor jobless claims so that the Fed can kind of tick off the box and say, mission accomplished.
BFM
Tony I just want to pick your brains on this. We’ve seen three straight days of market gains on Wall Street and this morning, or rather last night for you or today for you. We’ve just seen a reversal of that. Is this an indication that maybe fortunes might be changing going forward?
TN
I think it’s a good question, and I think it’s hope that the Fed is changing course. And I think regardless of what comes out, say, this month, and I think probably next month, I don’t think the Fed is going to change course. They were caught flat footed. They said that inflation was transitory, they messed up, they’re embarrassed, and they’re going to make people feel it. And people are going to lose jobs and homes and all sorts of things because regional Fed governors don’t want to be embarrassed again. So I think at least over the next two months, they’re probably not going to change course. They’re going to continue to tighten. I don’t think there’s been a dramatic change in everything. I think this is a little bit of hope, and I think it is some earnings that have been reported that are better than expected. But I think in general, people are being very cautious about trades they make.
BFM
Tony let’s end the conversation with a look at oil prices. They are taking a breather on news that US stock bells have risen. How will that translate in terms of energy prices as the Northern Hemisphere moves into winter?
TN
Yeah, the SPR, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve release, it’s put a lot of volume in the market in recent months. And of course, that’s lowered crude prices and it’s lowered the price of refined products. So after the election, and it’s no secret we expect the SPR releases to decline dramatically. And we’ve talked for a few months about how we expect crude prices to kind of spike towards the end of the year. And that would be spikes in crude prices and downstream products like, say, petrol. So we do expect that to happen in the North American market, kind of in Q4 and through Q1 out of the effects of that SPR release wear off.
BFM
And meanwhile, OPEC has also forecasted that China’s oil demand will decline by 60,000 barrels per day. Is that something that you see could cap further spikes in prices?
TN
It could. I mean, 60,000 barrels isn’t a lot, but it could. I think if China were simply to end COVID Zero, it would really drive consumption of crude. So OPEC must expect further dampening of the economy in China, and that’s no surprise. I mean, China is really having a hard time right now, and whether or not they can come back in ’23 is questionable, so it’s no surprise. But 60,000 barrels a day really isn’t a lot, and I don’t think it would affect prices dramatically.
BFM
Tony, thanks as always, for speaking with us this morning. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead.
BFM
Yeah, so we did see Meta shares plummet 17% on week fourth quarter forecast. And earning miss. It basically came up well short of Wall Street’s expectations. Earnings per shares earnings per share was $1.64 versus a $1.89, which was what was expected. Revenue was at $27.7 billion. Daily active users did meet expectations at 1.98 billion users, and the monthly active users came in at 2.96 billion versus 2.94 billion.
BFM
I mean, Meta is contending with a broad slowdown in online ad spending, challenges from Apple’s iOS privacy update and increased competition from other players like TikTok. It’s getting more expensive to run the company as Meta’s costs and expenses rose 19% year over year to $22.1 billion. And that’s something that Tony alluded to earlier, the fact that they’re likely going to see more layoffs moving forward. Tech companies have just been on a hiring spree that they cannot afford at this point. And I bet the WhatsApp outage the other day didn’t help a Meta’s fortunes either, at least in terms of its reputation and image. It could see a lot of people try to migrate elsewhere from using WhatsApp as their main communication source to another platform that is more stable, perhaps.
BFM
I must say we could wait until to see what happens towards the end of the year. Well, November actually, just next month when the midterm elections come, and we see if there’s any pick up in usage then.
BFM
That’s true. All right, it is 7:18 in the morning. We’re heading into some messages, and when we come back, we will be covering the top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned. BFM 89.9. You’ve been listening to.
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A podcast from BFM 89 Nine, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the VFM app.
In this episode, we talked about what’s happening with inflation in markets, and where it’s hitting, particularly in the US in different sectors. Mike walked us through the Asian contagion for inflation. Also, given where USDCNY has been over the past week or so, how vulnerable is China? Are they more concerned about inflation or export competitiveness?
Sam put out a couple of wonderful newsletters about central bank responses to inflation last week. The Fed seems – and is – unrelenting in their response, regardless of what happens with UK gilts. One area Sam raised last week is the car market versus mid-market dining: Cars vs Cracker Barrel. He walked us through the price and volume considerations with these two.
And then we looked at Meta’s move to freeze hiring and their warning about layoffs. Is that a broader signal for tech?
Key themes: 1. Inflation: Asian Contagion 2. US Inflation: Cars vs Cracker Barrel 3. Meta’s move: More to come? 4. The Week Ahead
This is the 36th episode of The Week Ahead, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.
Time Stamp 0:00 Start 0:49 Themes for this Week Ahead 2:47 How vulnerable is China? Are they more concerned about inflation/export? 10:23 China will not be the exporter of deflation anymore 13:28 Will China give in to devaluing CNY? 16:15 Cars VS mid-market dining 22:00 Price increases will continue? 24:26 Is this the beginning of the end of tech wage spike? 29:11 How does this current ad slowdown compare to the past? 30:20 What’s for the week ahead?
Tony Nash: Hi, everybody. This is Tony Nash and welcome to The Week Ahead. Today we have a couple of very special guests. We’ve got Michael Kao. You would know him from Twitter as UrbanKaoboy. And we’ve got Sam Rines. And obviously you know Sam from previous shows. This week we’re going to talk about a lot about what’s happening with inflation in markets. We’re going to talk a lot about where inflation is hitting, particularly in the US in different sectors. And then we’re going to cover a little bit of tech.
So our key themes this week first is the Asian and contagion for inflation. And Mike’s going to jump into that in quite a bit of detail. We’re then going to look at US inflation. Sam put out a really interesting note covering kind of cars versus Cracker Barrel, although that’s not really the comparison, but it’s something in that range. And then we’re going to look at Meta’s move to freeze hiring and their warning about layoffs. Is that a broader signal for tech? And finally we’ll move into the week ahead.
So before we jump into this, please be aware that we have our product called CI Futures, where we forecast hundreds of commodities, currencies and equity indices as well as economic indicators. I was just going over our error for GDP USD for the month of September, and our area was about 2.23%, I think, for the month. So it’s a very relevant product even in these times. You can find out more on the link below.
It’s $99 a month and you can see everything in the subscription there. We publish our error rates. We publish our forecast. You can download the data, you can download the charts and do comparisons. So please check that out.
Michael, thanks for joining us. I really appreciate your time. I’ve heard you on a number of other podcasts and it’s just so great to have you here. I really appreciate it.
Michael Kao: Yeah, thank you. Great to meet both of you. Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
TN: Fantastic. Hey, there’s a tweet that you put out a couple of weeks or about a month ago actually looking at the Asian contagion and pretty much it was reflecting a tweet that you had put out in January, talking about your expectations for the year ahead and the set up for the year ahead.
So given where, say, CNY has been over the past week or so and the set up that you put out earlier in the week, how vulnerable is China? Are they more concerned right now about inflation? Are they more concerned about export competitiveness? What does that look like? And as you start talking, we’ll put up a chart of USDCNY as well.
MK: Sure. Before I answer that question, I just want to take a quick step and just outline for you, like where I kind of arrived at this Asian contagion thesis. Right? So about a year and a half ago, I’ve been invested in the oil patch for quite a while. And I’ve expressed my bet through a long term private equity plate because it’s my belief that years and years of underspend and then exacerbated by this worldwide ESG push right, and diversion of capital away from the sector and then of course, further exacerbated by all of this massive monetary and fiscal stimulus first created oil inflation way back. Right.
So I started noticing this basically around the beginning of ’21 and I wrote a bunch of threads about it. And then during the year I started thinking what are the ramifications of this? Well, the ramifications are that it’s going to make our Fed more hawkish than the rest of the world earlier than the rest of the world. And so what are the ramifications of that? Well, given that currencies are mainly driven by interest rate differentials that would in turn create this what I labeled a USD wrecking ball effect.
And so as that thesis started kind of coming true and gathering steam throughout the year, the tweet that you referenced that I wrote at the beginning of this year was that I said, look, the setup is a scary one for this year because we have the makings of a stagflationary energy crisis not seen since the 70s. It’s going to create tightening ahead of the world, creating this USD wrecking ball. And then we have this everything bubble to boot on top of that.
And this wrecking ball really reminded me of my sort of baptism by fire into the hedge fund business. In 1997, I joined a hedge fund here in LA called Canyon and we were value credit based investors and a lot of our idiosyncratic bets essentially got swamped by the macro, right? So what started as seemingly innocuous devaluations by a couple of EM countries in Southeast Asia metastasized over the course of a year and a half until full blown credit contagion. Except this time, what I wrote about in this thread is that what’s scary is that number one, the level of inflation that’s driving this US dollar racking ball is much higher than before.
And from my oil centric point of view, I think a lot of it is structural. And then the second thing is that the vulnerability point… I mean the EM countries are also vulnerable. But what’s scary this time around are the developed nation currencies like the Euro, the Japanese yen.
And now I come back to your question, the Chinese Yuan. Your question is a really interesting one that I actually tweeted about this week is China. China is in a box. Just like the Bank of Japan, just like the ECB. They’re all in a box because their respective economies are much weaker than ours.
I think the big question, and I don’t know when the US dollar wrecking ball is going to peak, maybe it already has. But I suspect though, my hunch is that maybe it’s still got some legs to go because until you reach a point where the macro fundamentals of those respective economic zones are strong enough to allow their central banks to essentially outhawk our central bank. Any interventions are going to basically be just a wasted burn of their reserves.
And so you saw that with the BOJ, right? They spent something like 20 billion of reserves defending their currency and that lasted two days. And we’re back to all time lows in the Yen.
So China is really interesting because China is such an export-driven economy. One would think that with their economy on the back foot from the property crisis, from zero COVID policy, one would think that as their neighbors are devaluing and becoming more competitive versus them, that they would be more worried about their current account getting hit, right, their current account surplus getting hit. And so you would think that they would want to let their Renminbi devalue.
What we saw instead, I think, was that yesterday that the PBOC had a pretty strong intervention in CNY. That tells me, I actually put a tweet out to exactly the effect that’s a big tell to me that they’re more concerned about inflation. And China, just like Japan, is uniquely vulnerable in that they are also net importers of something like 80% of their energy. They’re in a tough bind.
And the million dollar question is no one knows when… That day, when the BoE intervened and all risk assets rallied hard. I think that was the market kind of conflating that all these interventions are going to be exactly. It’s going to lead to the Fed also going to QE. And I put out another thought on Twitter saying that, you know what, I don’t know that you can conflate that because the Fed was happy to be the world’s plunge protection team in a world of where there was no structural inflation.
When you’ve got a world of structural inflation, it becomes kind of an every man from self dynamic where I don’t know that how much we can go help stymie the yen or stymie the Renminbi or stymie the Euros collapse by queuing here. Because that’ll just completely inflame inflation. And the big tell on that was on that risk on day. You know, what was really roofing also was oil. And so it comes back down to oil.
If the Fed actually blinks and goes back and pivots, the thing that’s going to moon and lead us right back to square one is oil, which is what started this whole cycle in the first place.
TN: So let me take a step back from what you said, because you just unloaded a lot, which is great, and I think Sam will violently agree with you on a lot of stuff. But what’s really interesting to me. If China is worried about inflation. Although this is somewhat like 2011. When they had the, or 2007 or whatever. When they had the pig flu and all this other stuff.
And there was inflation pressures but China has been the source of deflation for the last 25 or 30 years right and so if China is no longer the global exporter of deflation then it is a dramatic change in the structure of the global economy. Dramatic and I think so many people use this that this is not something that we’re not going back to 2019 prices ever. Right? But I don’t really hear people talking about China not being able to be the exporter of deflation anymore and that’s just one that’s come and gone that’s already gone right.
MK: And it’s not just China. It’s Eastern Europe, too, right, because I wrote a thread that basically borrowed some of the thoughts from Professor Goodheart’s paper about how this was kind of a once in a lifetime demographic dividend that allowed the world and the Fed to basically pay for over every financial crisis of the last four decades with aggressive monetary policy because there were never any inflationary repercussions. But as you so validly pointed out, that was due to like a once in a lifetime sort of demographic dividend that is now in secular reversal.
Sam Rines: To this point… I want to jump in and just reinforce this point here because I think it’s a really good one that China was a massive source of goods deflation globally along with East Germany, Poland. Etc. as they joined in following fall of the Berlin Wall.
But I think there’s something really intriguing here is that it doesn’t even matter if they still continue to export some goods deflation over time. Their commodity inflation tailwind is going to be problematic. The only thing that has really saved them with a Renminbi north of seven is that they haven’t had to import anywhere near the amount of commodities that they would typically have to. If you’re locked down, they have the longest commute times on average in the world in China. That is a tremendous tailwind to gasoline. Food. Et cetera. When you begin to reopen and have China’s economy going full bore, that is a tremendous issue for the commodity complex in general in an environment where it’s already broken. It’s going to be a tremendous amount of pressure on that system and I don’t think people are prepared for that either. That China is now the exporter of an incredible amount of commodity inflation over the next half decade or so.
MK: It’s actually really insightful because commodities which they have to import. They’re super afraid of that and that oil is basically the primary factor of production for everything under under the sun. Yes, everything.
TN: Back to CNY do you think they’ll kind of give in to devaluing or do you think they will continue to fight this, which is a battle that everyone loses eventually?
MK: That’s such a hard question to answer because if anybody can fight it, it would be China right?Because they have a non convertible currency, right. So I think, for instance, Japan is much more vulnerable because I don’t see Japan imposing capital controls and I don’t see Japan relaxing on their yield curve control. So the only exit valve there is the Yen devaluation. Right.
But in China’s case, they have capital controls. I spoke on an interview earlier this week with Mike Nicoletos, and we were discussing about whether or not there’s a porosity through the Hong Kong dollar. Right. I think they have to clamp back down, too, right? Because. If they really want to manage the pegs, they need to really like stymie capital controls. Otherwise, I think capital just going to flow out.
TN: So will we see a divergence between CNY and CNH?
MK: What is the divergence? I mean, it’s tiny. Two or something.
TN: Okay, great. I’m just wondering if CNH is trading offshore and that’s allowed to freely trade or relatively freely trade? Maybe. Sam, you have a better idea? I’m not entirely clear on what the restrictions are on CNH trading because I don’t think it’s completely for all. Otherwise that divergence would be much bigger, I think.
TN: Well, it’s a spread, right? It’s a proxy of a spread. And so you can see pressure on that, and you can see that pressure pushing the expectation of seeing why potentially devaluing if they don’t handle it. Like PBOC, they’ve got a lot of smart people, but policy wise, they make a lot of mistakes. Don’t think they’ll elegantly.
MK: I was just going to say that I actually think that if they let CNY or CNH freely float, it would have a nine handle on it. At least, I think that’s where it goes.
TN: Yeah, at least. Okay, very good. Thanks for that, Mike. I really appreciate that. Let’s move on to Sam. You put a note out earlier this week talking about inflation and central bank responses to inflation. And the Fed obviously seems unrelenting in their responses. Mike mentioned, as you mentioned in your newsletter and here several times, but one area you raised in your newsletter this week is kind of cars versus mid market dining.
So you talk about cars, Carvana versus Cracker Barrel. Can you kind of walk us through that? And I’ve got a couple of shots from your newsletter. One is on the Carvana release, and the other one is on Cracker Barrel. Actually, we only have the one on Cracker Barrel to show the group. But do you mind walking us through that?
SR: Sure. So the impetus behind the note was really to kind of make the point that Mike made earlier, that the Federal Reserve does not care about what’s going on in the Gills market. It is not going to come save the Bank of England and Downing Street from what they’ve done. That’s not their problem. That’s a domestic issue. And when you decide to have a massive fiscal tailwind and a monetary policy that was being highly restrictive and going to sell bonds, your currency is going to fall. And that’s your own problem. That’s the way that the Fed viewed it. And then a bunch of Fed speakers came out and said basically exactly that, but in a little kinder tone.
But the idea there kind of pulling that together is that the US domestic economy is still doing well. So the CarMax report was really interesting because CarMax has used autos, right? That’s what they sell. And all the headlines about inflation and used autos, their volumes got absolutely trashed in the past quarter. And that makes sense, right? People?
There’s a drawback from interest rates moving higher. It’s one of the most direct things that is affected housing and car financing. But the interesting part about it was while the volumes were down, they still had revenues up on their retail segment because prices were higher 25% year over year, their average selling price. So they did a really good job of kind of managing their revenues.
But that speaks to the inflation problem, right? The Fed doesn’t care about volumes going down. If the prices are still higher. Then you kind of go to Cracker Barrel, right? Middle America in my mind is you can encapsulate middle America in a Cracker Barrel I mean, it’s kind of perfect. And when you look at their release, it’s pretty clear that they called out 65 and over dining down. Guess what? That’s highly sensitive to inflation. They cited lower income individuals dining out less. Again, highly sensitive to inflation. And they still had their comp store sales up 6%, which is pretty good. And then you read a little further in the same sentence and they’re like, and we had pricing higher by 7%, so traffic was down. So they had negative traffic at higher prices. So that is again, they’re giving up volumes to be able to push the price and grow reps.
I think this is kind of a microcosm of the US economy, right? It is a strong economy. If you can continue to push price like that on the consumers. If you can grow revenues while pushing price at those levels, that’s pretty incredible. And then it’s pretty interesting to me because there’s this whole idea that corporate America is going to slow down their price increases. Cracker Barrel basically shot that idea right in the foot by saying, hey, listen, we think wages are going to inflate 5% over the next year. That’s september to September. And then if we’re going to have comparable store sales up, right?
So guess what? They’re going to continue to push price. And that’s where I think we kind of need to take a step back and realize these inflation pressures are broadening out and they are beginning to become embedded. Their food costs, when they forecast that, I believe that number was 8%. These are significant figures, right? These are not things that we would have thought were possible five or six years ago. They’re becoming embedded. I mean, that’s 2023 that these guys are thinking that.
And just one more point going back to the CarMax report, their SG and A, their cost of doing business, we’re up 16% year over year because they hired more people and they paid them more. So you think about you grow revenues at 3%, but your costs are up 16%. I mean, that’s a pretty big problem. Again, it goes back to the two things that the Fed really wants to get under control, including inflation is two things, right? They talk about the vacancies to unemployment ratio. They need less hiring to happen and they need wages to begin wage growth, to begin to subside a little bit because that’s a tailwind consumption.
So I think you’re having a number of pieces working against the Fed that might not be showing up in the data, mostly because I think the data is kind of crap. But the best part is if you’re kind of willing to go to that microlevel to get the macro and pull the macro out of it, these trends are not going anywhere anytime soon.
TN: So what I get out of that is I hope Cracker Barrel has digital menus. If not, I want to be their menu printer because every time I go into a restaurant, I wonder how often they change their prices, right? And basically, from what you’re saying, it sounds like they’re going to continue to push up, I don’t know, quarterly, semi annually, but they’re going to continue to push these prices up based on what’s happening in the market, and I suspect they’re not going to come back down. Oh, no.
SR: There are other ways to do it, right. You can push price by pushing less food on a plate, too. Right. So you can do some creative things on multiple fronts. Shrinkflation. The shrinkflation. But I do think that you’re not going back to anything like 2019. Right?
MK: I just want to riff off that for just a second because I participated in a real estate panel a couple of weeks ago and listening to these asset managers from around the world present. One big asset manager was basically saying that they’re still seeing essentially. Even though the rent growth is slowing down. It’s still growing for Q3 of this year where you would think that the hiking has already kind of worked its way into the system. That rent growth is still annualizing at a 10% click. So you talk about sticky.
I’ve had this thesis that it started with commodity inflation. Commodities have abated somewhat and certainly will abate more if there is an Asian contagion. Right. But the core stuff, which is what Sam is talking about, and also rents, that’s really sticky. But here’s the problem. When that stuff starts curling over, I really agree with you that if China reopens, you’re going to see a resurgence in commodity stuff again. So I call this sort of like the core energy tag team. And I think we’re going to see this tag team effect possibly for years.
SR: Oh, yeah. To rip off that I called it the COVID earthquake is going to have more aftershocks than anybody really wants to admit.
TN: Yes, there was so much intervention. You can’t just earn it out in six months, right. Or a year. It takes so long to work that out. So that makes a lot of sense. Guys, staying on this inflation theme and Sam, you mention SG and A and wages. Meta announced yesterday that they are imposing a hiring freeze and they’re warning their employees about restructuring.
So obviously now that as of yesterday, they’re the second most valuable company in the world with Exxon taking over. But if Meta is instituting a hiring freeze and Sam, you talked about Carvana hiring a bunch of people last quarter and their costs going up, what does that signal for tech?
I think, Sam, you showed me the site layoffs.fyi or something like that to look at layoffs in tech, there are a couple of issues which we covered with Mike Green before and you’ve talked about up befor Sam, where ad space is becoming almost infinite and these guys who are ad based have a lot of headwinds and Meta is no different. And so that’s obviously one of their headwinds.
But the SG&A cost is huge. Right. What do we need to be looking for with Meta and companies like Meta? And is this the beginning of the end of the tech wage spike?
SR: I’ll take part of that. Okay, good. Is it the end of the tech wage hike? I don’t know that is going to be the case simply because we don’t have enough people with those skills, even if we do have a pullback in the number of hires. Right? On the marketing side, yes. But on the tech hiring front of people with programming skills, et cetera, I don’t think that’s going to slow down or those are going to slow down anytime soon, at least until we have enough of them.
But maybe on the marketing side, et cetera, I would say that the Meta announcement is far more indicative of a slowdown generally in Silicon Valley startup ad spending on the marketing. That’s a problem for Meta on the margin. A significant amount of their ad revenue comes from startups.
It’s a much larger problem for a company like Snapchat. Right. There is a hierarchy of where you go to advertise and when you’re going for eyeballs. So if it’s a problem for Meta, it’s probably a much larger problem for a Snap in some of those smaller, less ubiquitous platforms.
But yeah, it’s always going to be a question of where is Meta putting its incremental dollars, because it is making a pretty big push into the Metaverse. It’s unlikely that people are getting slashed, jobs are getting slashed there. It’s more likely that what you’re going to see is a reduction in places. They’re simply not seeing the returns that they want to see and they’re going to continue to grow the hiring base on something that’s important to them, like building out the Metaverse side of the business.
TN: Sure. Yeah. Mike, what are you seeing with tech?
MK: I don’t follow Idiosyncratic tech as much, so yes and no. I’m actually, ironically, one of my Idiosyncratic positions is actually a dyspacked ad tech company that’s in the ad arbitrage business. That’s a different type of a different type of play, but I haven’t been as focused. So I’m very interested to hear your sort of microcosmic views. Really interesting.
TN: Yeah, I think everything Sam says is spot on. I do think that in terms of the core coding skills, there’s a lot of slack there. So for example, as we talk around, because we hire developers. Some of the developers who work for some of the very large tech companies who make mid six figures, something like that, their daily code commit is something like eight lines of code. That’s it.
Okay, so these guys are not sweatboxing code. It’s a very minimal amount of code they have to put in every day. So I think there are major productivity gains to be made on the developer side within these large tech companies. So maybe it’s not hitting yet, but I think it will hit soon as it always starts with marketing, right? It always starts with traveling expenses and then it goes further. And so I think give it a few months and we can see it go further into development.
MK: I’m curious, Sam, if what you’re seeing in the sort of tech ad slow down, how does this compare to past downturns, past cycles?
SR: It’s hard to say because we haven’t seen many significant down cycles. Because COVID wasn’t a down cycle for ad spending. It was kind of strange. Right. Social media did very well during that time frame, and social media was so young in ’08, ’09 that it’s hard to really get a read there, except you can kind of extrapolate Google. Google did pretty well in ’08 ’09. They took a lot of market share from traditional media, but that was a different age. So I would say it’s pretty hard to look back and say it’s going to be similar this way or not similar.
MK: But wouldn’t you say, though, that the ad slowdown is just across the board? It’s not as if traditional ad spending is going to start eating their lunch across the board.
TN: Real quick before we wrap up, if you can, in ten to 15 seconds, what are you looking for for the week ahead? Mike, what are you looking for next week to watch?
MK: Well, this has been a very confusing week in that I think there have been a lot of quarter inch shenanigans and window dressing. I’m still macro pretty bearish. Okay. I’m concerned that I think after the window dressing is done, I think some of the supports from the market may actually not be there. I watch bonds and commodities a lot.
TN: That makes sense. Yes, Sam?
SR: I’m just watching the Euro and what happens with TTF next week. I think that’s really important after we get through the quarter close.
TN: Absolutely. Guys, thank you so much. I know this is quick. I wish we could talk for two more hours.
I guess we got cut off at the very end there, so I really apologize for that. I just wanted to thank Mike Kao and Sam Rines for coming on The Week Ahead. Thanks, guys, so much for all that you contributed this week. And thanks to everyone for watching. Have a great weekend.
The ride-hailing company said it was responding to a ‘cybersecurity incident’ and that several internal systems had been affected. Margi Murphy is a cybersecurity reporter at Bloomberg News and updates us on the story.
Why do we have such an attachment to some of our favorite brands? We know brand loyalty is a marketing executive’s dream – but how have some of our kitchen cupboards seemingly become even more than that – more like old friends? The BBC’s Dave Reid investigates.
The UK competition authority intervened after Facebook’s parent company Meta applied to buy out the gif platform Giphy. Technology reporter Ryan Broderick gives us the background.
Will Bain is joined throughout the program by Tony Nash, founder of the AI firm Complete Intelligence, in Houston, Texas, and by Shuli Ren, Bloomberg Opinion reporter in Hong Kong.
Transcript
BBC
Hello and welcome to Business Matters on the BBC. World Service will be with you today. Thanks so much for ending your week with us. Most linking off today, though, for our two guests, tony Nash, founder of the AI firm Am Complete Intelligence, joining us from Houston, Texas. Tony, welcome back.
TN
Hi, Will.
BBC
Ending the week with us, and you can tell BBC Sport have been in the studio here before because I just saw flash through on one of the panels here, the Houston Astros, your beloved Houston Astros getting underway in momentarily the baseball and joining us.
TN
That’s right. They’re doing well.
BBC
Thank you, they are. And putting in your Yankees under a lot of pressure, too, which I know will give you even more pleasure, tony, absolutely, yes. Tony Nash in Houston, because this is right in your wheelhouse, Tony. I want to pick up that point that Margie made right at the end there. First of all, these companies, A, specialized in technology, b are some of the richest companies on the planet. How on earth does this keep happening?
TN
There are always new ways to hack you’re as strong as your weakest employees. Temptation, I guess. And it sounds like they got in through a phishing attack. And it’s hard to make things 100% secure. If people want access to the outside Internet, if they want access to emails, these sorts of things, you have to have some ways for people to get in, unfortunately. And it’s just not surprising everyone gets hacked whether they admit it or not. And so this was just a very visible hack on Uber.
BBC
Yeah, Uber have been doing something interesting, certainly, tony, in my reading around this, I didn’t know quite as much about this. Perhaps you could explain more to people, but they were using ostensibly kind of a team of their own hackers to kind of test for vulnerable points in their system over and over again. And actually, bizarrely, that might have proved to be one of the vulnerabilities here. Just explain first that how it works and then how that might have happened.
TN
Yeah, I mean, it’s good practice to have people trying to hack your system. It’s probably good to have contractors doing it and also alternate them from time to time because you have to have different thinking about your security because there will always be people thinking differently about your security. And so it’s a challenge, and you have to be very careful. So it’s really easy to second guess Uber and say they did the wrong thing, but I’m sure they are industry best practice and more. It’s just a matter of, on some level, bad luck.
BBC
No, really interesting point, actually. In our earlier sister show, World Business Report, we were talking to Chris Low, one of our financial analysts, who were saying actually the share price was reacting on perhaps exactly that, actually, maybe you were better prepared for this than others. So an interesting kind of wrinkle to that element of it. She’s the blessing and the curse of new technology that we always want something new and shiny to sell to investors and to customers when actually investing, ensuring what we’ve got might actually be better long term for the business. Yes, Tony, I could hear you agreeing with that too.
TN
Yeah, it’s not an easy balance. Right. And Uber is in kind of a weird place, coming out of Covet and trying to get their business at the same place as it was and more. It’s difficult for everyone. And again, everything you do to remain secure can potentially hamper your ability to get revenue. Those are not different sides of the same coin. But I think you have to be careful about your security kind of overwhelming your business needs. So it’s a real hard one.
BBC
So you don’t become too cautious, I guess, going the other way.
TN
That’s right. Exactly. So it’s a real hard one to look at Uber and go, oops, they did something wrong. There’s always something done wrong on the security side within businesses. Right. And so they’re no different. And like I said earlier, they’re probably better than most people.
BBC
I’m a sucker for a good deal. Shirley, don’t get me wrong. Tony, you wanted to come in.
TN
Well, they don’t have people as full time employees, and this isn’t really to defend Uber, but they do give people a lot of flexibility. Again, it’s really hard to look at that and say, oh, they’re such a terrible company. I don’t believe that. I mean, they’re a very popular company.
BBC
Absolutely. That was just only in the past life. Stock markets was very much your bag as well.
TN
Oh, yeah. And also servicing global curry companies. When I was at The Economist, we did work for those guys in 2007. I remember one of them calling me with a situation just like this, and they said, It’s not public. We saw this. What’s your view on this? So I called the chief economist at the time, and I said, hey, this is happening. Should we worry about this? He said, no, it’s probably just a blip. So these are very serious things. We all know what happened in 2007 and 2008. So these are very serious things, especially when a company like FedEx says it. And so we have to pay attention. And if they say it’s already happened or this is old information, then, great, we’re already well into it. That’s the relief that I come out of this with is if they say that it’s happened some time ago, even if it’s a few months, great, that stuff happened. We’ve seen China closing down, and we’ve seen the number of the impact on the supply chains. And the US already had two quarters of negative GDP growth, and we see what’s happening with energy prices, other things in Europe.
TN
So it’s no mystery that we’re in a recession, right? It’s no mystery at all. I’m glad that we’re seeing things like this. FedEx report come to confirm it.
BBC
Tony taking us neatly to exactly one of those issues, the sort of extra pillar putting the pressure on here, energy. Big development on that in Europe today because there have been dramatic developments in Europe’s largest economy. Germany has taken over local branches of Russia’s biggest oil company, where you raised it. It’s all of this that’s in the mix, isn’t it? This sort of mess around where energy is coming from, how people can get it, how much is going to cost.
TN
Yes, it’s a very big problem, to say the least. And energy is going to cost a lot this winter in Europe. There is no debate about that. And we see coal plants reactivated, we see more oil, we see desperation for natural gas. I’m in Texas. That makes us happy. But it’s going to be very difficult in Europe. The saving grace of this is the following. Countries like Germany have plenty of room within their national account to subsidize a lot of energy so they can subsidize something like one time their entire GDP. So there is room to spend at least with the German government and a few others. So northern Germany generally can help their people or northern Europe sorry, generally can help their people with some sort of subsidy to get through the supply type of issue.
BBC
And Tony, obviously in a sentence or two, interesting pressure on the US. To pump more reopen pipeline. Difficult politics, isn’t it?
TN
Yes. Please call DC and tell them to reopen pipeline.
BBC
So speaks of Texas Republican. That Tony Nash with us from Houston, Texas, the energy capital of the US. Of course, sheli ran also with us from Hong Kong. Pay more from both of them in the second half of business matters right after we get you up to speed with the latest worldviews two rapidly middle ageing men discussing gifts there you can see the problem in a nutshell. Ryan Broderick of the content minds podcast helping us out with that. Tony, that’s the issue, isn’t it? Something starts off being cool, and then we’re talking about it in our defense on business matters late at night on a business show on the world service and radio four. That’s when it stops becoming cool. Perhaps.
TN
Perhaps. I sent a gift yesterday and today on twitter. Here’s the thing. I know I’m not cool, so I’m not trying to be cool. I’m just trying to contextualize something that I said. So whether it’s cringey or not, I don’t think it matters. I think people do it. Some of them are a little bit annoying, but a good Austin powers gift every so often is kind of fun.
BBC
Well, this is where I wrestled with it in that interview, tony, because he’s actually from an American advert. I think he’s from a geico insurance advert. But I like the pig who sticks his head out the window and he’s got kind of sort of a toy fan that whizzes in kind of excitement, and I like to use that one pretty regularly. And then listening to Ryan’s interview back, I thought, probably going to have to retire that Shelley bluntest submissions I’ve ever seen in what is normally a fairly dull area, competitions and markets, authorities submissions. Would you maybe advise if you could perhaps be a little less honest in the future?
TN
It’s worth it. Not cool enough. Defense, right? Yeah, I don’t know. I think it sounds like they like Meta headquarters and they like the free meals and the massages and all that stuff, and they don’t want to have to go out in the cold again. I don’t know why else you would do that.
BBC
And in a wider sense, we see it in some of the sectors, don’t we? We were talking about it in the office, actually, about things like craft beer. You get to a certain stage, actually, and that none of your fans or the people who love your product necessarily want you to sell out to a big company, a giant company, but actually, they’re the ones who can facilitate growing more, getting more eyeballs, getting more users on your products.
TN
I’d love to sell it. To.
BBC
Come find complete intelligence, call Tony. We’ll link you all up. Well, we’re going to stick talking brands. Complete intelligence, obviously an excellent one. Surely if you’ve got a plug, you’ve got about 20 minutes left in the program as well that we can get to. Tell us about what the magic of Tabasco is. Louisiana’s pride and joy.
TN
Well, obviously you don’t know about the enemy between Texas and Louisiana.
BBC
Of course.
TN
It’S great, and Louisiana is fantastic. We love that stuff here and it’s really a Louisiana thing, but Texans really love kind of spicy Louisiana food and of course, Texas barbecue.
BBC
In terms of brand loyalty, what is it, Tony? What makes a customer exactly like Shirley says? Because most people are driven by price. So why is it just ease and comfort? Or is there something more hooky about it, something cleverer in the marketing?
TN
Yeah, I think it’s comfort and as much as it’s a feeling, right. I mean, there’s a particular type of condiment that I like that I’m not going to mention on here, but I like that my family knows that I don’t take anything else. I’ve been in since I was a kid, right. And we don’t get any other brands because they just taste different, and my palate is just articulated for that taste. But we grow up with these things and they give us a level of comfort. And I think about my kids grew up in Singapore. We spent 15 years there. So there’s a particular brand, for example, of soy milk that they like from Singapore that reminds them of Singapore. They don’t want Japanese soy milk or whatever. They want this particular brand of Singapore soy milk.
BBC
Play that piece a little bit, because obviously it’s a huge constitutional and historic moment here in Britain. But it’s interesting the kind of global grab that the story and the event has had for days now. Do you think perhaps some of those silver screen portrayals are part of that story, part of that reason why sure, yeah.
TN
I lived in London when Diana died, and I remember being in London when the Queen Mother died, and not so much Queen Mother, but these previous events really did get certainly Western attention, if not world attention. And I think there’s a fascination with the Royal family, but I think there’s also kind of a confusion of, like, what do they actually do? I don’t mean that in a disrespectful way. I think that’s a lot of the.
BBC
Rest of the world no, we’ve seen some pretty quirky constitutional stuff this week, haven’t we? Things that we’ve never seen in this country on the tele before, some of the sort of announcements and Privy Council meetings and things that television is giving us a view into.
TN
Right. And I think that is something that is interesting. It’s puzzling and people romanticize a lot of that.
BBC
Of course, Tony in the US is going to be a huge global television event come Monday with US networks, I imagine, are all piling on the plane as we speak.
TN
Yeah, I’m sure they are. I don’t really know, but I’m sure they are very well.
BBC
But there’s going to be an appetite for it is, and it’s going to do big numbers there. And TV news has become a lot about big events like that.
TN
It is. And all sorts of non expert experts will come up to talk about the Royal family to fill that time. I think what I would love to see is people just take it in, whether it’s on video or whether they’re there. This type of event obviously rarely happens, right? So don’t give me commentary talking over the live events, just kind of show us what’s actually happening and occasionally explain what’s happening, but really just let people take it in more than have this kind of rambling commentary about it.
BBC
Well, of course, if people do want to take it in, the BBC website, BBC TV and right here on the World Service is going to have plenty of coverage of that on Monday. Tony Nash, Shuli Ram, been a real pleasure to have you with us on business matters. As always, both of you, have a great weekend. And to all of you listening, the same, thanks so much for being with us. Bye.
Sam Rines wrote a piece on business costs and uncertainty weighing on earnings this season. He talked us through what’s happening with interesting charts on Caterpillar and Old Dominion.
We saw Facebook turn dramatically this week and we saw KWEB up over 7% on Friday. At the same time, Amazon, Pinterest, and others with disappointing earnings. Tech isn’t really a sector-wide play as it was in 2020 and 2021. Alber Marko explains what should we be looking at in tech.
We’ve had a lot of action in Europe with Russia cutting off the gas in Poland and Bulgaria and a demand that oil and gas be paid in Rubles. Tracy Shuchart explains what it means for commodity prices and the market in general.
Key themes from last week
Earnings: COGS in the Machine
Earnings: Tech
Europe-Gas-Ruble Chaos
This is the 16th episode of The Week Ahead in collaboration with Complete Intelligence and Intelligence Quarterly, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.
TN: Hi everyone. This is The Week Ahead. I’m Tony Nash. We’re joined today by Tracy Shuchart, Sam Rines, and Albert Marko. Before we get started, I’d like to ask you to like and subscribe. Also, please note this is the last weekend for our CI future promo. $50 a month for thousands of assets reforecast weekly. So please go to completeintol.com/promo. Subscribe for $50 a month and you will get global market and economic information. Thanks for that.
So, guys, this week is a little bit exciting. We have a few key themes that we’re looking at this week. Two of them are earnings-related. One is COGS in the machine, which is related to a newsletter that Sam Rines put out today. The other one is tech. And the last thing we’re looking at is the Europe-Gas-Ruble chaos.
So, Sam, you wrote a piece today on business costs and uncertainty weighing on earnings. So can you walk us through this? We’ve got a couple of slides from your newsletter up. One is Caterpillar Earnings. Maybe you could walk us through that first and then we’ll go to the Old Dominion earnings and walk through why those are so important.
SR: I think it’s really interesting to kind of at least be able to get some real-world understanding of what’s happening on the ground. Right. We all know wages are going up. We know costs are going up. We know shipping costs are going up. But how that was going to be reflected through the earnings season was somewhat of an unknown. Right. We knew it was going to affect us, but we didn’t know to what extent.
The interesting part about Caterpillar and one of the reasons I like to point it out is that they had pricing power. They pushed prices pretty heavily down the system. The problem for them was that they couldn’t push the price as much as their materials and shipping costs went up. It was simply too big of a headwind, at least for the first quarter. Their orders are fine. The business itself is okay. But generally what we saw was pricing power. Not… There were a few, but pricing power was generally unable to keep up with the cost pressures overall.
The interesting one and kind of related to Caterpillar are Polaris. Polaris is one of the most interesting companies. It’s consumer-facing yet, it’s a manufacturer. It’s something you don’t need a new side by side typically. You don’t need it. Right. These aren’t needs. These are more of discretionary spending. They had a very similar problem to Caterpillar. But the end market user for these is very similar to Harley Davidson. There was another one that had issues.
The inventories are extraordinarily low. Right. Their inventory levels at dealerships are very low. So eventually when they can pick up their production, they’re going to be able to push up their production numbers pretty significantly just to be able to refill the inventory pipeline at their dealership. So while it’s a big headwind today, it’s worth watching call it nine to 18 months down the road when you begin to see signs of these material costs abating, the supply chains getting back to normal.
Those companies are going to be able to put up some pretty interesting numbers very quickly.
TN: So, Sam, will they leak in gradual price rises? Because it doesn’t sound like they’ve been able to do it all at once. But will they continue to raise prices even as, say, the primary factors of inflation start to abate a little bit?
SR: Oh, yes. That’s been a constant theme of this earnings season has been. We will continue to either try to find ways to squeeze costs out of the supply chain, and normalize those somewhat, but almost more emphasized was there will be price increases to offset all of this.
To your point on Old Dominion, they just tossed on fuel surcharges.
TN: Yeah.
SR: If you’re going to have problems with freight, fine. But we’re going to surcharge you on fuel. And they only pushed about 50% of their overall gain. And year over year was pure surcharge. So it was an interesting one.
TN: And fuel charges are sticky, right. They don’t take those off right when fuel prices go down, they keep those for a year after the prices go down, right?
SR: Correct. Right. It’s the interesting part about all of this is these price increases are not going to be reversed. Caterpillar is not going to take off their price increases. Polaris probably isn’t going to take off some of their price increases, Old Dominion is unlikely in the near term. These are going to be fairly sticky over time.
TN: Okay. So last week when both you and Tracy weren’t here and Albert and I did the heavy lifting to keep the show going, we talked about sticky prices and we talked about how we hit new pricing levels. Even if the rate of inflation slows down, we’ve hit new pricing levels. Is that semi-permanent? Is that permanent or is that transitory?
SR: It’s a step function, right. Okay. You step up and then you’re not going to step back down. You step up the price increases and then maybe you can trickle two or 3% inflation on top of that going forward. But step-functions do not reverse. And I would say that this is much more of a step function type deal.
TN: Okay, good news, Tracy. You were going to add?
TS: I was just going to add I mean, the business survey. The Fed business survey came out small business survey came out this week and they were looking at it in four out of ten small businesses said they were looking at price increases of 10% or more. So this is across the board, not just for mega-cap companies.
TN: Right. Yeah. And even since I talk about coffee so much, even one of the small coffee roasters who I know, said his costs had risen 50% over the last year and he was only able to put in a 20 to 25% price rise. But I’m certain that he’s going to continue to gradually work price rises over the next year or two as we’ve hit this kind of plateau, or at least step function in price rises. So good news all around. Right.
So as we stay on COG, Sam, you had a portion in your newsletter talking about Meta, and we’ve got that on-screen talking about their G&A increase. Can you talk us through that?
SR: Yeah. So I thought it was pretty interesting. They increased their employee base by 28% year over year. I mean, this whole idea is that hiring is tough. It wasn’t for Meta. But the funny part is, or not funny. But G&A was up 45, so you hired 28% more people, but G&A popped 45. Again, that’s a step up that probably isn’t going to step down any time soon unless they’re going to begin laying people off. Right. Maybe it’ll roll out of earnings next year, but it’s not going well.
TN: We’ve seen some tech layoffs, right.
SR: Some.
TN: Announced over the past week. It’s not like it’s not a huge trend yet, but we’ve seen a few.
SR: Yeah. And the other important part that I think was overlooked was Snapchat, Facebook, or Meta, whatever you want to call it, when they announced earnings, they cited that, listen, when you have inflationary pressures, wage pressures and you’re a small business, guess where the discretionary spend is, that’s marketing budgets.
Marketing budgets will get cut and get cut fairly dramatically and fairly quickly if you continue to have this. And not to mention if you don’t have the stuff to sell and you continue to have supply chain issues, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to spend a lot of money on marketing. So I think those two raised some red flags, I think we’re subtly overlooked by a lot of people sitting on.
TN: We talked about this last week and how a lot of ad inventories are likely to come online soon. So there’s a supply problem and a demand problem with those companies going forward. I think the names that come to mind will probably do fine. The smaller names are probably going to suffer. So it might be tough.
Albert, on that, we saw Facebook turned dramatically this week in the last half of the week after they reported earnings. KWEB was up 7% today, a stock that we talked about here a few weeks ago. But at the same time, Amazon, Pinterest, and others are disappointed. So tech was a sector-wide play in ’20 and ’21. It’s not that anymore, is it?
AM: Yes and no. The problem with tech is that there are about a dozen names that the Fed uses to pump the market. So forget about Pinterest. That’s too small of a company. We’re looking at Google, Facebook, Meta, whatever you want to call it. Not so much Amazon, but the other ones like AMD and whatnot? So they’re going to yoyo those earnings in those pumps. So what they’ll do is they’ll wait until Netflix…
They know that Netflix will miss and they’ll pump the market to soften the blow and then they know that Apple is going to beat so they’ll let the market sell-off and use that to drive up the market. So this is just a cat and mouse game by the Fed to just manipulate the markets until what they’ve been saying is a soft landing.
The tech earnings are just playing right into that narrative of theirs. They know what the earnings are beforehand and they just play the market like that. So going on with tech earnings? Yeah, I mean they are weak. We can see that they are incredibly weak.
Will they be weak for the whole year? I don’t know. They do like the Nasdaq. So I wouldn’t want to be short tech going into the summer. But that’s just my personal opinion. But then you see KWEB surge because the Chinese start talking…
TN: Ion subsidies. Right. And government activity.
AM: It is what it is and you never know what type of government contracts Meta, Google, or whatnot will start popping into their bookkeeping. It’s a really dangerous game to short tech in my opinion.
TN: Yeah, well it’s interesting to me to see the user’s numbers like aint Netflix and I know there’s a couple of weeks old now but Netflix goes down. Pinterest goes down, Snapchat. These sorts of things. Amazon was kind of tepid but Facebook was really good. So I think we’re seeing almost some elasticity in some of these markets as we see people going back to work and we see other things happening. We’re finding out who’s going to be there no matter what and whose demand is a little bit flexible.
AM: Yeah. And then you’ll also find that some of these tech companies will look to acquisitions to boost their user numbers going into the fall. So this is why I don’t like the short tech at this level.
TN: By the way, if anybody is looking for a tech acquisition. Right here.
AM: Yeah, cool. 46 billion. Cool 46 billion will do it.
TN: Okay. Let’s move on to commodities. Tracy, there have been a lot of issues in Europe with the ruble as we’ve seen more countries decide to pay for oil and gas in rubles. We’ve seen some interesting action with the Euro and the ruble and with gas prices. Can you talk us through what’s going on there? And really, what does it mean? Because we’ve seen the price action. But what do you see its kind of meaning going forward?
TS: I mean what it means is Europe’s not directly paying in rubles. Right. What they’re going to do is they’re going to set up an account at Gasprom Bank. They will continue to pay in Euros, dollars, and local currency. In turn, Gasprom Bank will convert that currency into a separate account. So it’s not technically against sanctions. It’s a workaround. Right.
The interesting thing is EU didn’t have a choice, to be quite honest. They’re dependent on Russia for 67% of their natural gas. They don’t have LNG storage facilities built out. Those are going to take at least two to four years. I don’t care what they say next year, it’s not going to happen. Those things take a very long time.
So right now, they’re kind of being held hostage by Russians. So they’re going to have to pay as much as they don’t want to. Now they can wean themselves off of Russian oil a lot quicker because you can have the Middle East pick up that slack and they don’t import all that much. Right. It depends on the country. But Europe is not a huge source of oil exports for Russia. So that can happen.
And so for what I foresee, they’ll probably do that just so that they say we’re getting rid of Russian energy. Right. So I think you’ll see Russian oil cuts, I think that can be done relatively quickly. But as far as nat gas, I think it’s going to take a lot longer than most think. Even though they said they wanted two-thirds off by the end of 2022 and then completely out of Russian gas by 2027.
Again, I think that’s going to take a lot longer than they anticipate.
TN: Yeah. Can you imagine the conversion fees that Russian banks are charging for Euro to ruble? We’ll never know. Right.
TS: Banks are going to make money. It’s good for Russia. Right. That keeps the currency stable and it keeps their economy stable. And so, I mean, it’s kind of a win for Russia on this because the banks are winning and their currency and economy are winning on this one.
TN: Yeah. So we also had an emergency kind of this week with Russia saying they would turn off gas to Poland. And they did. But Poland has taken other measures since the war started to get other sources of gas. So it didn’t hurt them all that much, did it?
TS: Yeah, no, not at all. I mean, it was Poland and Bulgaria. They’re very adamant from the beginning to get out of Russian gas. They also don’t rely on it as much as, say, Germany does. Poland already built out an LG storage facility tank that’s completed.
They also produce a lot of coal and they use a lot of coal. And so that was not a surprise to me, nor did it hurt those countries very much.
TN: Right. What country do you think is in the most difficult position right now? Is it Germany?
TS: Germany hands down. A lot of the reasons are because they don’t have any other pipelines into Germany except Russia. So they’re definitely in the weakest position right now.
TN: Okay. So, guys, what do we expect, like, with the ruble going forward? It’s hit its pre-war levels. Do we expect the ruble to strengthen?
TS: Right now, yes, I think that it probably will continue to strengthen just because they’re asking for payments of commodities in the ruble.
TN: They’re not asking.
TS: Well, yes, they’re holding hostage. But it’s not just in other words, it’s not just the energy complex. It’s metals, agriculture, et cetera. So I think that we’ll probably see that continue to strengthen.
TN: Okay. Hey, I also wanted to ask you about fertilizer. I saw some of the Fertilizer stocks come off a bit this week. I know that we’ve talked about fertilizer before. Is it still as urgent of an issue as it was, say, three weeks ago? And if it is, why are Fertilizer stocks coming, falling this week?
TS: Well, I think partially because we saw kind of natural gas pullback a bit. Right. That kind of alleviated the pressure. We also saw the broader market sell-off, which means sell what you have to if you get a margin call. Right. And you had something like IPI, whose earnings were not as good as they could have been. Right. Considering. So it’s kind of a combination of everything.
SR: Yeah. And you are beginning to see signs of demand destruction as well. There was an announcement by a Brazilian farming giant that they were going to cut their fertilizer usage by 25 or more percent this year. So, yeah. Yields down, fertilizer up.
AM: Not to mention the good old dollar looking like it’s going to go to 110 on the Dixie causing problem everywhere.
TN: What do you think about that, Albert? What’s the time horizon for 110?
AM: I think we get that within the next two months. Yellen is on a mission to destroy emerging markets. She’s going to do with the dollar. She did this in 2013 when she was Fed chair. So, I mean, it’s the same playbook. It’s nothing new.
TN: So if the dollar does hit 110, does it stay there for some time, or is it just kind of marking territory, saying, we can do this again if you don’t behave?
AM: I think it’s a moment in time. Keeping the dollar at 110 is going to cause really big problems across the world. So they can’t keep it there too long. But they can… Even China talking about the stimulus, 109 causes a problem for China. It’s quite an event to see that happen.
SR: Yeah. Into Albert’s point, and I think this is incredibly important, china has to buy food. Right. And they’re buying, you’ve seen the rip lower on RMB, CNY, that thing has gotten crushed over the last week. And they’re still buying corn and soybeans from the US en masse. And that’s getting much more expensive very quickly. That’s going to be a problem.
TS: The only thing that’s helping them right now is that their entire country is locked down. Right. I mean, that’s the only thing that’s helping slow the blow and kind of making these commodities pull back a bit so they’re not as expensive.
TN: But Xi has got to make some money to feed his people. Right. Otherwise, you’re going to have Mao 1961 all over again.
TS: What he’s doing is insane. Don’t starve your people. So obviously ulterior motives are going on there.
TN: Yeah. So we’ll talk more about China next week. Okay, good. Let’s have a week ahead lightning round, guys. What are you looking at? Kind of most Interestingly for the week ahead? Sam, if you can go first, what’s at the top of your mind right now for the week ahead?
SR: Top of my mind is going to be energy company earnings and what they’re saying about their production, whether they’re upping premium, where they’re getting production from, how they’re doing it if they’re doing it, whether or not Capex budgets are moving higher, how they’re moving higher and where. And then any comments on labor pipe concrete, et cetera, I think will be very interesting as we go through next week.
TN: I think you stole Tracy’s answer, though, right?
TS: Exactly what I’m looking at. I expect to look at production probably has not increased that much because I think they’re having labor issues and supply chain issues have not gotten any better, if not ten times worse. So that’s what I’m looking forward to.
Also always keep an eye on China. Beijing is just locked down or partially locked down. So how many more cities are we going to have, how many more States we’re going to have, and how many more people are going to be locked down for how long? Because that’s going to affect the commodities market in the midterm. But that said, if you look at the commodities complex, we’re still over 100, like 104.
So it’s still holding strong, even though we’ve had a lot of demand. They say about a million and a half barrels per day of China demand is kind of off the market right now.
TN: Yes. So if they come back online, it’s game on, right?
TS: Yes.
TN: All right. And Albert, what are you looking at for the weekend?
AM: Probably the most dovish sounding 50 basis point rate hike you’ll ever hear from the Fed. Like we did this and we’re sorry. If they want to break this market down sub 4000, go ahead and try to talk hawkish but I don’t think they want to do that. So Jerome will just put his foot in his mouth like usual and say something stupid but it’ll be dovish that’s what I’m watching.
TN: Sam, Fed guy? What do you think, Sam?
SR: I think the same. Listen, I think they’re going to try to avoid talking too much about another 50 basis points hike. They’re going to try to get away from providing clear forward guidance and be incredibly vague because if they’re vague about what they’re going to do then it’s going to be perceived as dovish. So agree with Albert, right? You get a 50 basis point hike and then we’re not sure what we’re going to do next, right?
TS: Somebody brought up like 75 basis point hike this week and the Fed was like, no, we’re not even considering that.
TS: Yeah, exciting. Sounds exciting. Okay guys, thank you very much. Have a great weekend. Thank you very much.
With inflation being the main concern in global markets, are central banks reacting quick enough to hike rates to contain inflation? And how will tech stocks perform amidst the volatility that we have seen year to date so far? Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence shares his insights with us.
Show Notes
KSC: Good morning. This is BFM 89, five minutes past seven in the morning on 28th April, 2022. I am Khoo Hsu Chuang with Wong Shou Ning and Tan Chen Li. In the meantime, let’s recap how global markets and the It yesterday.
WSN: US Market down 0.2%, SMP 500 up .2% Nasdaq close flat Asian Market Nikay down 1.3%, Hong Kong up .6% Shanghai Composite up 2.5%, SDI closed flat FBM KLCI down .7% pretty interesting trend over there. You can see I think the Shanghai site went up a bit because of the possibility of maybe cases eating in China.
KSC: Yes, foreclosures and more openings. So to join us on the line for some analysis on what’s moving markets, we now turn to Tony Nash, the chief executive of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Now, let’s start with tech stocks, and they’ve had a bit of a bumpy ride the first quarter and into the second quarter. What’s the situation report in terms of where that risk on asset class is concerned?
TN: Well, check so far in the earnings season hasn’t performed well except in the last few hours when Facebook announced their earnings. So Tech’s really disappointed. Up until about two or 3 hours ago, Facebook announced that ads to their users, their earnings were up and so on and so forth. So after hours, they’ve popped by $30 a share or something like that. And Qualcomm also after hours reported really good earnings. So what we saw early in the earnings season with tech down, hopefully Facebook and Qualcomm have changed things a little bit. But that’s not to say we’re out of this. Just because we’ve had a couple, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re out of the woods with tech. So Pinterest reported and they were negative. And so we’re really separating the kind of the viable tech businesses from those that really aren’t viable and who are really struggling. Part of the problem with tech also is that we have a lot of ad space coming online now with Twitter now sorting themselves out and with other tech firms having new ad space like Netflix is adding ad space and ad based subscriptions. So we’re going to see a glut of ad space going forward, which will challenge some of these technology guys in, say, two to four quarters time.
TCL: So, Tony, how do we know what is good and what is not such a good tech stock? What differentiates it? Is it going to be margins? Is it going to be market share? What is it management?
TN: Yeah, I think people are looking at earnings. People are looking for, say, online companies. They’re looking at users. So let’s compare, say, Netflix and Facebook. Netflix had a net loss of users. Facebook had a net out of users. Netflix’s earnings went down. Facebook earnings went up. Netflix versus Facebook, their earnings went up. People are really looking at what is the core business of that tech firm. And are they succeeding at that. So you can’t necessarily make a broad sectoral play. Right now, markets are really in flux as interest rates rise and money supply is kind of reined in. So you really have to understand the companies and you have to understand what the advantages and how they’ll play, at least over the next quarter, if not more kind of medium term.
KSC: Yeah. Tony talked about earnings. Right. What’s earnings season been like so far? It appears to be a mixed bike. Bad at Boeing. Okay. At Visa. Robin Hood is laying off people. What’s your take on earning season so far?
TN: It’s very mixed. And I think you’re seeing the companies that are well run versus the companies that have been just kind of posting. So during the Pandemic, we saw the Fed buying a lot of these Fang names and Tesla and other tech names. So it was pretty easy for tech firms to just kind of move along with that wave and not really get their management in place and not actually manage the business and the operations. These ones like Qualcomm and Facebook that are reporting well, they’re getting their operations in place regardless of what’s happening in the external environment. The guys like Pinterest and some of these other guys, they’re not managing well and it’s showing in their earnings.
WSN: Let’s talk about inflation. As we know, this is the key concern of the global markets. So are central banks around the world a little too late? Too late already in trying to hike rates?
TN: Yes. Central banks are always too late because nobody he wants them to be the buzzkill on a Bull market. And so if they had come in earlier, although it would have been appropriate, they would have been blamed for killing the Bull market. So the pressure on a central banker is such that they really don’t want to be blamed for killing it. Now they have to come in for a lot of different reasons and raise rates. So I would say they’re definitely too late. They’re always too late. Is it too little? That remains to be seen. We expect a 50 basis point hike in May and another 50 basis point hike in June. That would really recalibrate some expectations. And we’ll have to see what happens in markets there. When you look at the ECB, they can’t raise at that rate. They’re stuck in a really bad place with energy and food prices. So they’ll move much more slowly.
TCL: And I guess the same for the bank of Japan that’s supposed to be meeting in the next two days. You don’t expect them to move? I mean, look at the yen. It’s like two decades low. Do you think this will continue?
TN: Yeah. BOJ and ECB have a lot of similar issues, and they’re really kind of pedging into a corner. They can either support their bond markets or they can support their currencies. They’re in that bad of a position. They can’t do both so both of them have to support their bond markets right now. They can’t mind their currencies. Now, when we look at the PBOC really has to just drop helicopter cash across China right now. They have to get incredibly aggressive to support the Chinese economy. If they don’t and if China doesn’t open soon, there are major problems in China. So the PVoC has to be very aggressive going forward.
KSC: Yeah. Just think of the PVC. Tony, do you expect that the Chinese government maintains its very strict zero covered policy, especially since in the context of a rapidly declining local economy.
TN: think China cannot stay closed. Okay. The rest of the world has come to a position where COVID is endemic. That’s the view of the governments. People realize that they have to have an active economy to feed their people. China is making these very active, say, policy changes for a number of reasons. But what’s happening is it’s starting to really bite. They’re starting to impoverish their people because of food prices, because of fuel prices, because there are no exports and so on and so forth. So the Chinese government is in a really sticky position. And if they don’t change policies soon, there will be major difficulties both politically and economically in China.
KSC: Yeah. And lastly, Tony, just want to get your view in terms of rushes and systems are being paid in rubles with its energy supplies. How do you read that move in the context of it being taken off the Swift financial system? It’s freezing of dollar assets in the context of the US dollars utility in the global economy.
TN: Yeah. I think look, Russia, this is a negotiating position for them, and it’s something that they’re insistent on. They know that countries like Germany are way too dependent on Russian oil and gas. So they know that Germany will pay in rubles if they’re pushed to do it. They don’t have a choice. So Russia is right now showing Europe who is boss, and Europe has unfortunately put themselves in this position. Poland hasn’t worked on diversifying their energy of late, and a lot of their energy mix comes from domestically mined coal. But for oil and gas, they’ve been working feverishly on getting alternate supplies, but other parts of Europe have not. And also they’re much more dependent on Russian oil and gas. So Putin is flexing. They have to kind of count out to him and they have to do what he says because he’s their main source.
KSC: Absolutely. Okay. Tony, thank you so much for your time. That was fantastic, as always. That was Tony Nash, complete intelligence chief executive, talking to us about markets. And just in the context of China’s insistence on staying closed, I think if the Chinese government doesn’t about turn even in the slightest, it might just be the biggest fill up for capital markets going forward.
TCL: Well, we’ll find out later at 730. Right. Because you’re going to be talking to Gary, he’s an economist and he’s going to be telling us what’s the situation like on the ground, whether the GDP target of 5.5% is going to be achievable at all, because it looks like the lockdown might even extend all the way to Beijing.
KSC: Yes. And of course, our Foxconn’s factory is bigger supply to Apple also is close in Kunshan, two of them. So global repercussions. Let’s turn to Facebook, now known as Meta, which did report earnings before they reported the shares actually did soon, considerably on the expectation that they would report a bad set of numbers. But actually, Facebook Meta surprised.
TCL: I think there was a lot of negative news even before this. And they were already receiving regulatory headwinds from the EU with regards to whether their dominance questions of their advertising, questions of how much are they involved in our daily lives. But I think the results were better than expected. Yeah.
WSN: So I think adding on to what Shannon was saying, there was also a concern about user base that’s not growing for the first time. The revenue that came out yesterday, it was reported their shares jumped 15% because their revenue jumped 6.6% to $27.9 billion. And this is the first time in Facebook’s ten year history as a public company that they landed in a single digit growth. And if you look at it, is that better?
TCL: Good.
WSN: Well, slower, but still growth.
KSC: Yeah. Because with this kind of platform, it’s all about Dows and Miles. Right. Daily active users and monthly active users now.
TCL: And what they found is that people have been spending a lot of time. So maybe the number of users hasn’t increased as much as they should, but the duration in which you spend on Facebook has increased. So you’re looking at maybe people spending as much as an hour versus other social media platforms where, yes, you might have an increase in users, but the duration is actually shorter. So that’s the justification as to why the share price has bounced today. And this is what Meta is telling the analyst community out there.
KSC: And we saw Snap also report a good set of numbers, surprisingly. Right. So actually doubling daily active users beat expectations, one point 96 billion versus one point 94. And Mouse monthly active use is two point 94 billion. Missed expectations of two point 95. So not a big mess. But actually they did also guide for revenue that was weak because of three things. Right. First of all, the military situation in the Ukraine. The second one, of course, the Apple Privacy changes, which made it more difficult to target ads. And of course, then the supply chain affecting advertisers now very quickly Spotify.
TCL: How many of us have subscriptions? Me, yes, me, I. But the share price fell more than 12% despite reporting first quarter earnings that beat both top and bottom line. Looks like markets still not happy with that number. I think exiting Russian market led to a loss of 1.5 million subscribers. Although monthly active users went up by 19% year on year to 422,000,000 users I think ad supported revenue did also grow 31% but I think basically ending subscriber subscriber base like Netflix seems to have come under pressure in the last few months.
KSC: Yeah sign of the Malays affecting streaming sites. Stay tuned. BFM 89 nine
In this episode, we talked about some really interesting tech earnings like of Facebook and Amazon, crude and natgas prices, and the bond market. How does the NFP data affect the bond market? Also discussed central bank’s reaction to inflation and why you should be keeping your eyes on the CPI?
This is the fifth episode of The Week Ahead in collaboration of Complete Intelligence with Intelligence Quarterly, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.
For those who prefer to listen to this episode, here’s the podcast version for you.
TN: Hi, everyone, and welcome to The Week Ahead. I’m Tony Nash. And I’m joined by Tracy Shuchart, Nick Glinsman, and Albert Marko. Before we get started, I’d like to ask you to subscribe to our YouTube channel. It helps us a lot get visibility, and it really helps you get reminded when a new episode is out so you don’t miss anything.
We had a lot this week. We had tech earnings, some really interesting tech earnings and market activity as a result. We had crude really ripping this week. And we had bonds raging at the end of the week. So really a lot happening across sectors, NASA classes.
So let’s start with the bond market, Nick. We seem to have gotten pretty much what you mentioned on last week’s show. So can you go into kind of what’s happened and what’s happening in the bond market right now?
NG: Yeah, we’ve basically been ambushed by inflation. That’s what’s happened. You saw yesterday out of the ECB, which was a hawkish twist, possibly one of the worst press conference performances I’ve ever seen in my life. But the facts of the matter are you’ve got five, six, 7% inflation in various countries of the EU. In Lithuania, you’ve got 12%. Okay. So they are failing at their predominant original mandate, which was inflation per the Bundes back from what I’ve been told, there were several members of the MPC.
TN: Sorry. When you say she, you mean Christine Lagarde?
NG: Christine Lagarde. Several members of the NPC wanted to get moved yesterday. Not going to happen but it’s reasonable to think perhaps two hikes this year, but that will still take us to -20 basis points. It will still be negative. Okay. And then that upset the European bond markets.
You have the Bank of England go first with 25 basis points, four dissenters wanting half a point. That started to rock the bond markets a little bit. Then the press conference out of the ECB, and you basically had, goodness how many Sigma move it was in two-year bubbles, two-year German government bonds. But they basically went up over 20 basis points in a couple of hours, terminating early this morning, and they’ve stayed elevated.
And then you had this non farm payroll data. Everybody got it wrong. And the thing is, if you think this month’s figures are nonsense, well, look at the revision.
TN: Sorry, when you mentioned the NFP data, what’s important about the NFP data? Because I think some people looked at the headline employment numbers, some people looked at the wage rate. So can you tell us what’s important there?
NG: Two things. One is nobody was expecting a non farm payroll at like this. Some people will say, well, it’s always going to be revised. Well, okay, then look at the near $400,000 upward revision for December. It’s. All their data. The way it’s coming out. The BLS isn’t necessarily the best, but everything that they look at is strong labor market.
The thing that really upset the bond market was the average hourly earnings. 5.7%. To Albert’s point last week. Wage inflation is here to stay. So having been inundated with calls this morning, that really affects what the Fed… The Fed actually are fighting for their credibility.
TN: When you say wage inflation is here to stay, but it’s really, is the Fed trying to break the back of wage inflation?
NG: Well, that’s something they could impact. Right. By increasing the demand side of the market. We’ll have another idea on inflation next week. The CPI. And the lowest forecast is 7%. The highest is 7.6%. They’re not getting the favorable comparisons because oil has continued to move up. Energies continue to move up. Right.
So assuming we’ve got a seven big handle and heaven help us if we haven’t hit the 8 handle at all, this Fed has no choice. Because as you can see with the bond market, the bond market is going to do the Fed’s job if they don’t do, it.
So every time we get to what you had over the last couple of days with a bit of pullback before the ECB had a bit of pullback by some of the Fed members, the FMC members, and the yoke of, steepened.
AM: I got a question for you, Nick. Can you buy bonds if oil goes vertical? Because I think we both think that oil is going 120 north.
NG: Yeah. Well, no. I think that’s another reason why you can’t be long bonds at the moment and the bond market will adjust to it.
Everybody said the bond vigilantes are dead. When you look at the percentage moves and the price of the bonds, they’re not these are big moves going on.
TS: Nick, can you address a little bit about what will happen to the credit markets as far as the bond movement?
NG: High yield seem to do okay today, which investment grade, fine. Historically, in rising rates, you should see investment grade is somewhat better. High yield, no. High yield. I mean, if these rates are going to start moving up and some of the stuff I heard today tells me “one and done” is not going to happen. It’s going to be more and they’re not going to have a choice.
And the central banks have been basically what you had in the last seven or eight days is the central banks admitting they made a policy error or two last year. And now they’re fearful of making further policy errors. So they’ve got to be seen to do.
And again, to Albert’s point last week, clearly the Biden administration is, had their backs on the inflation front. And I suspect from what I was being told, we’re going to be quite surprised at potentially how aggressive this Fed could be. Not 50 basis points in March. That will be too quick. Too much, too quick. But May, June could well be in play because these numbers aren’t coming down. They’re just not coming down.
TN: Okay. So regardless Q2 is when things start to happen on the interest rate front, on the rates front, right?
NG: Yeah. In terms of QT, I was told the second half, beginning of the second half. Second half.
TN: So does that mean July or November?
NG: Probably means July. Okay.
AM: I honestly think it’s a possibility we do that beforehand just because fiscal cliff is coming in March.
TN: How do they go from QE to QT? Just like that? They shouldn’t be doing QE right now anyway. That’s true. It’s still doing QE. So they missed a beat there.
AM: How do you taper if you’re doing QE still? Why doesn’t anybody ask that question or answer?
TN: I ask it every week.
AM: Tony, I was on this thing with Andreas and “we’re going to taper.” I’m like, “okay, sure.” On paper. But the reality is you’re not because the QE is continuous.
TN: I don’t know. It seems to me from what Nick is saying, it may not be continuous. It seems like that has to stop because the policy position is going to stop in March. Right?
NG: Exactly. Which is why I think 25 basis points, not 50. However, I think right now, until they’ve caught up somewhat forward guidance is not going to be with clarity.
They want to get back to normal so they can be forward guiding according to what we were used to in the deflationary times. Pre-Covid. Okay.
TN: Okay. So when you say pre-Covid, you mean pre-Covid in terms of interest rate and balance sheet?
NG: Yeah. I think it’s exactly what I’ve been told this morning. They want to get back to the interest rate level that was prevalent then. They want their balance sheet back at that level.
TN: Okay.
NG: And I think that what’s happened is not only have they been shocked by inflation, they shouldn’t be shocked by the false-ty of their forecast, but I think they were shocked by the fact that we’ve got a lot of bubbles going on.
Equity market value, housing market, NFT, crude oil. Crude oil’s not a bubble. Bonds have been a bubble. So I think we’ve got some surprise. And of course, that will then feed it.
Remember I said originally, there’s either a riot in the bond market or riot in equity market.
TN: That’s right.
NG: One or the other. It started with bonds, and then we got a bit of an equity riot yesterday, which was more earnings related. But the thing about it is if you look at interest rates as gravity, zero interest rates with basically zero gravity. So you’re on the moon. Equity starts have been up here. If they’re raising rates, they’re increasing the level of gravity. News and law means that something starts to fall.
I was also told if it’s not a cascade, if it’s orderly, sort of down 20% from here, they’re okay with it.
TN: Okay. That puts us at what, 36?
NG: 35, 36,000, which is still above where we were before Covid. Right?
TN: Right.
NG: Fed will be happy with it. This put, is not, there’s no clarity on the put anymore.
TN: Okay. Is it safe to say that your view by the end of the year is sometime between now and the end of the year will hit 35, $3600?
NG: Look, the Fed. These rate markets will carry on. Any mistake by the Fed, any hesitation, it’s going to be punished by rates. And you’ve seen what’s happening, and it happens. It crosses over. You saw what happened in the European bond market as well this Thursday. Bank of England. You saw Gilts market also adjust, and that flowed through to the US market and it continued today.
TN: So do you think the ten-year crosses 2% next month?
NG: Oh, yeah. My target on the ten-year for this year is 260.
TN: Okay, great. So let’s take that and a central bank’s reaction, inflation. Tracy, we’re seeing crude prices just kind of a rocket ship. So can you talk us through that and let us know how does that contribute to next week’s CPI? And Nick mentioned CPI, but what do you expect for that as well?
TS: Well, I mean, I expect CPI to be high. However, the Fed doesn’t really include energy and housing in there and food in their metrics. So that doesn’t necessarily play into that.
That said, I think what we saw today was a lot of shorts being squeezed out of the market. That said, still expecting higher crude prices later this year into Q3.
The reason being because the global oil inventories just drew another 8 million. We have OPEC that just announced another 400K increase for next month this week. Right. And they haven’t even been able to keep up with their production increases. I mean, their compliance is over 132% right now. They just don’t have the spare capacity to move forward. US products consumed last week hit 21.6 million barrels. That’s over 2019 levels.
So globally, we’re seeing higher demand with lower supplies. So this market is likely to continue higher just because of actual supply and demand issues, which I’ve been talking about week over week.
What’s also interesting today is that nobody’s really talking about is that Saudi Aramco just announced that they’re mulling another 50 billion equity stake sale. Right. And so it would be a good thing to keep kind of oil prices higher and inventory is kind of lower. Right?
TN: Sure.
TS: There’s a lot going on in the market right now.
TN: Okay. And as we see this cold front come through different parts of the US, of course, it’s winter. But do you expect, say, Nat gas to continue to rally or say, for the next couple of weeks or next couple of months, or do you expect that we’re kind of in the zone where we’re going to be through the winter?
TS: I mean, I think we’re kind of in the zone. US nat gas prices are not as subject to the volatility or the constraints that say European nat gas prices are concerned. I mean, we have an overabundance of Nat gas, we tend to flare it.
We’re going to be this year the world’s largest exporter. Right. But that’s not necessarily going to bring I mean, you have to look at our gas prices trading at four or $5 compared to nat gas prices in Europe trading at $40. So I think we’re at a sideways market right now just because of the oversupply that we have.
What we are saying is depending on what area you live in, then natural gas prices tend to vary. So we’re looking at the North East, for example, where we have this cold front. Nat gas prices are at $11. Right. But Henry Hub, which is what everybody’s trading is still at 4 to 5. We’re going to see not gas prices rise in Texas right now because we have a cold front coming through. But again, that’s a regional market.
TN: I was just complaining about gasoline prices being $3 here in Texas earlier today, so I just can’t deal with it. Where is it where you guys are?
AM: $4.25 in Tampa.
TN: $4.25?! Holy cow. What about you, Tracy?
TS: $3.99 in the Northeast.
TN: We’re right at $3, and I can barely stand it.
Okay, let’s move along with the geopolitical stuff. So, of course, Ukraine is on everyone’s mind. And we’ll put a link to this in the show description, the video from the State Department spokesman and the AP diplomacy reporter. Albert, can you talk us through a little bit of that kind of what’s happening there and what is that doing to the situation to find a diplomatic solution?
AM: Well, simplistically, I mean, you have the Biden administration trying to amp up the rhetoric and make it more dramatic, basically to distract from what’s going on domestically in the United States from inflation and social issues, and SCOTUS picks down the list of the problems that are facing the Biden administration. That exchange was unbelievable.
You had an AP reporter just taking him to task and saying “where’s the declassified information? And his response was, “I’m telling you verbally right now, and that’s the declassified information.” That’s unbelievable. You’re not going to get away with that.
This is just more of a symptom of the ineptitude of Anthony Blinken as Secretary of State. He shouldn’t even be called “Secretary of State” anymore. It should be “Secretary of statements,” because that’s all he does. He doesn’t do anything else. And when it’s concerning with Ukraine and his method for, “diplomacy”, he’s a non factor. The United States is a non factor, right now.
They’re behind the eight ball where they keep talking up this rhetoric and putting their allies in Europe behind the black ball here. What do we do here? We need support from the United States to show strength, but realistically, we can’t stop them going into Ukraine.
TN: Okay. Yeah. So let’s just go onto a viewer question here from @SachinKunger. He says, what will happen if there is an actual escalation between Russia and Ukraine? What’s the likelihood of actual escalation and what do you think would happen? Both you and Tracy? Part of it is commodity prices. Is there an impact on commodity supply chains, meaning wheat and gas and other stuff to Europe or other places, or is that not necessarily a huge issue?
AM: Well, I believe we’re about 75% that they’re going to have some sort of incursion into Ukraine. I mean, you don’t mobilize that many people and create supply chain logistics to not do anything. That question really depends on the level of incursion. Right. Because if it’s just ten, 20,000.
TN: It goes back to Biden’s minor incursion.
AM: That’s the Pentagon’s working model. And that’s my working model. 10, 20 thousand, you go in the same place as you were before, you loot the countryside, cause a little disturbance. The west looks weak. You leave after a month or so. Right. That’s the likelihood situation.
Of course, the markets are going to freak out in day one.
TS: That’s exactly what I was going to say. I mean, obviously you’re going to see a reaction in the commodities markets just because we’ve had four years of really not much geopolitical risk factored into a lot of these markets, the agricultural markets, the energy market. Right. Pretty much after Libya had a ceasefire in 2020, all that risk premium kind of came out of at least the energy markets and the agricultural markets, we haven’t really seen a lot of geopolitical risks.
So of course, the markets will freak out. I totally agree with Albert on this point. Whether that’s going to last or not, that’s a totally different story.
TN: Yeah. I also think that we’ve had so much money supply that that cushions geopolitical risk on some level. And interest rates have been so low that that cushions geopolitical risk as well. So as we’re in this interest rate cycle and this balance sheet cycle, geopolitical risk counts for more. It’s more costly for companies, it’s more costly for countries and investors.
NG: I would add one other thing. These markets are not trading liquidly. So these moves on geopolitical risk could be exaggerated. Right?
TS: Exactly. My point is that geopolitical risk will be exaggerated at this point.
NG: You can see there’s no liquidity, right?
AM: Yeah. To be fair, any kind of event right now just makes the markets look like it’s a crypto exchange. 30% up, 30% down 300 points on the ES. That’s insane.
TN: On that, Albert, let’s move to some tech earnings and let’s talk about Facebook and Amazon. So if we want to talk about big moves, everyone kind of knows this, but can you talk us through a little bit of that? But I’m more interested in why it’s happening. Why is everyone negative on Meta and why are they positive on Amazon?
AM: Well, from my perspective, the Fed and their cohorts use maybe a dozen companies to pump the markets. Right. They’re mainly tech. Right. They’ve expanded out into a few other things, but it’s mainly tech, Facebook being one of them, Amazon being another. AMD and Google and all these guys. Right. All these big tech names.
Now when you see Facebook miss and a couple of other miss, and the markets start to get weak, there’s a point to where… This goes back to what Nick says about different levels in the markets and whatnot. He always stresses that with me. There’s a point to where if they break this level, we’re going down to 4100 or 4000 or God forbid, 3900. Right. So that lined up right when Amazon’s earnings were coming up. And I’m looking at the market and I’m looking at these levels and I’m like, there is absolutely no way they’re going to allow Amazon to miss. Whether they let them look the books or say something in guidance or whatnot. And lo and behold, what happened? Amazon beat. Did they really beat? Probably not. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then Pinterest that nobody cares about beats and then Snapchat. I don’t even know what the hell why they’re a company. They beat unbelievably. I think they were up like 50, 60% and after hours. Right.
So now they have their juice to pump the markets back up to 45, 30 or even maybe 4600 next week before the fiscal cliff becomes a problem.
TN: Okay.
TS: You also have to look at the bond market. Right? I mean, the more the ten-year tanks, the more that’s going to drag on tech.
TN: Right. So what does that tell us about the next couple of weeks, specifically next week? But the next couple of weeks? As we’ve seen, say Meta come down, Facebook come down. But we’ve seen these other things really rally. Where is tech as a sector?
AM: It’s a pump sector. That’s all it is right now. There’s nothing really behind it. It’s built on zero rates. Well, we know we’re going to get rate heights. So what are you betting on at the moment?
TN: Right. And that’s the basis of my question. If tech is a deflation play and we’re in inflationary environment and we’re going to have rate rises, what does that mean for tech in the near term? So are we at the kind of tail end of tech? That’s my real question.
NG: We’re at the tail end whilst we have to see these interest rate rises come through. And actually, you don’t necessarily have to see the central banks officially raise because if they don’t, the bond markets are… And then there’ll be a catch up. This is the problem. If they Underperform in their credibility catch up because they’ve already implicitly admitted their errors of policy, bond market will adjust and they have to catch up again.
Now, if they do something surprising on the rate side. So yesterday was an ECB shock, right? Today, there was nothing to do with the Fed. It was the data. Well, we’ve got that CPI date next week. Right. That’s going to be very interesting because I agree with Tracy. Core is at a certain level which is still too high. But it’s the full Monty, the full CPI that labor uses when they’re discussing their wage claims. Practically, that’s the behavior of economy.
TN: CPI is the single biggest event next week. Is that fair to say?
TS, AM, NG: Yes.
TN: Okay, so let’s look at that. What if it is, say seven, which is kind of the expectation, I guess the lower bound of expectation kind of. Right? So let’s say it’s seven or let’s say it’s even five. What does that mean for us? Does that mean continued, easy Fed? Or does that mean you have the same assumptions and that’s just kind of a milestone or something that we’re passing along the way to higher rates anyway?
NG: We’re on the way to higher rates anyway.
TN: Okay.
TS: I mean, if it’s five, the market, temporarily if it’s five, the market temporarily will probably rally because that lessens the effect that Fed is going to raise. Right. That percentage will probably go down. But that’s a temporary. If we’re just talking about market reaction on the data release, I don’t really see that happening. I don’t see 5% coming in. I don’t see that a possibility.
TN: But then let’s look at the other side. What if it’s eight and a half? What happens then?
NG: Well, then in the old days, it would have been an inter meeting rate hike.
TN: Okay. Right.
NG: And the bond market will just, it’ll be another riot. Even if the core is steady. Big figure eight on the full CPI? that would shock a few people. Like people were shocked today with the non- farm payroll data.
Literally, if you could watch Bloomberg TV, it was like. They couldn’t believe what was going on.
TN: So we’re in that place in the market where the porridge has to be just right. Is that fair to say?
TS: I think we’re in for volatility. Right? I mean, we’ve been experiencing volatility for the last month or so. I think this will continue until March, until we have some resolution of whether the Fed is going to raise rates or not.
In between, it’s going to be volatile because everybody’s looking at intermittent data saying, does this mean the Fed is going to raise rates? Does this mean the Fed is going to look do you know what I mean? So I think we’re in that pushbull thing, and I think that volatility will continue into next week. I think that volatility will continue until actually the March meeting, until we get some resolution on whether the Fed is going to raise rates and by how much.
TN: Okay. So if I just a couple of things for you to agree or disagree with, just short yes, no. Next week volatility in equities with downside bias, you agree or disagree?
AM: Disagree.
TN: Disagree. Nick, you agree or disagree? Downside bias, you agree. Tracy, equities, agree or disagree?
TS: I think it depends on the sector. Okay. Give me one or two. I think we’ll see, my downside bias is in tech and then obviously, yes, because it’s heavy tech. Right. And so I think we see sideways markets in the Dow and the Russell.
TN: Okay, then let’s do the same exercise for commodities. I know there’s a lot of companies out there, but generally commodities. Choppy with an upside bias. Agree or disagree?
TS, AM: Agreed.
NG: That’s a dollar call.
TN: Okay. Explain that.
NG: Yesterday because of the dollar’s weakness against the Euro and the Dixie, I tend to agree with you. I think it’s going to be choppy until we see the color of the CPI number.
TN: Okay. Very good. Anything else to add for the week ahead?
NG: Just keep your eyes on the bond market. My mantra.
TN: Very good. Okay.
TS: Keep your eyes on B come.
TN: Thanks guys. Thanks very much. Have a great weekend. And have a great week ahead.
TS: Thank you.
TN: I don’t know the left side of my screen is the pineapple people.
AM: We’re going to call Nick Luke for the episode today.
NG: The professional version of Luke.
AM: Okay. Anyways, I’m done joking. Let’s get this thing on the road. Okay.
SM: BFM 89.9. Good morning. You are listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar together with Wong Shou Ning and Philip See. It 7:05am on Thursday 3rd of February. But first, let’s recap how global markets closed yesterday.
WSN: Well, the US had a pretty good day. That was up 0.7%, SP 500 up 0.9% while Nasdaq was up 0.4%. And for Asia, the only market that was really open with the Niki, and it was up 1.7%. Hong Sung, Shanghai, Singapore and our very own FPM KLCI.
SM: We were all closed for celebrating the Year of the Tiger. Speaking of meta, I think the results came out and they were not within forecast essentially.
WSN: Well, actually after hours, right. The trade actually the share actually tumbled more than 20% in extended trading earlier. And I think it’s on the back of like what you say, Charles. It’s disappointing earning results. And added to that, they are giving weak guidance and said that user growth has stagnated. Now that’s kind of scary for a company the size of matter.
PS: Yeah.
Just to break down the numbers, earnings per share was at $367 versus the expected 384. Revenue was at $33.67 billion. The expected was 33.4, which wasn’t so bad. But Facebook also missed estimates with user numbers with his daily active users at one point 93 billion versus the expected one point 95 billion.
WSN: Now, I think why the markets are nervous is because when you think about it. Right, this company is at a critical juncture at this point. It’s fighting a regulatory battle on multiple France. And it’s also, remember, guys, it’s trying to shift into the Metaverse. And this shift is costing them an extremely a lot of money. So whether they can translate these KPCS that they’ve already kind of agreed to in terms of $2 and cents, that’s the question mark when your core business is not growing.
PS: I guess a big question of how do you monetize from meta and that pathway has not been articulated very carefully, isn’t it? But that’s a long term expectation. As you said, Shannon, there’s so much regulatory pressure on them. And I wonder with the whole discussion about your revenue source, whether you can rely on advertising revenue now going forward. That’s a big challenge for Facebook going forward and better.
SM: I mean, that’s going to be one of the major headwinds to them. I mean, Apple’s iOS changes affected ad targeting and measurements. That’s already a headwind. There’s also the fact that a lot of people are sort of flocking to other options when it comes to social media TikTok, YouTube. I think the advertising rates for Metsa’s own Reals on Instagram, that’s a lot lower than what’s available on other unfeeding stories.
WSN: No rewind, a few earning season rewind. Let’s go back a few quarters. And I think what has happened is that 18 year olds to 29 year olds were flocking to Facebook. Right. So the question is better, is it going to attract them? And what progress are they going to make? So that’s another thing that the markets are looking at.
SM: Joining us on the line now for analysis on what’s moving global markets, we have Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Thanks so much for speaking with us today. Can we get a quick reaction from you then on the disappointing results from Meta and Spotify? Does this mean something for tech bargain hunters?
TN: Well, I’d be really careful here because tech is really a deflation play. It’s not an inflation play. And so as we’re in the midst of the inflation cycle, there’s more movement to other sectors. So I don’t necessarily maybe it’s a short term opportunity, but again, if I was investing, I’d be really careful here with the Spotify and other misses.
PS: And can we get your perspective on the energy and financial sector? They helped the US Equities stage a mini rally over the last few days. Why are these economic sectors being buoyant while others like tech creating?
TN: Yeah, well, energy, commodities, finance, those are deflation plays or those are inflation plays. I’m sorry. And so that’s why more money is moving into commodities and energy and so on and so forth. So the market seems to be indicating that it doesn’t believe at least the equity market seems to be indicating that it doesn’t believe the Fed will fight inflation effectively. So they seem to be indicating that we’ll keep ripping on inflation.
WSN: So, Tony, how should we allocate our cash? Let’s say we have cash. Where would you be putting your money?
TN: Oh, gosh. Well, you really have to that’s an individual question. I just want to be really careful. So there’s a lot of money moving into commodities because there’s a belief that inflation is here to stay for a while. So if I were looking around, that’s really where I would look, of course, you have to have a risk allocation and you have to have some money and things like tech. But I would focus on companies that actually make physical stuff rather than, say, the work from home plays that we had over the last two years.
SM: And, Tony, let’s take a look at the US yield curve. It’s flattening even before the Fed has fired the first shot on rate hikes. What could possibly be causing this to happen? And do you see a short or long cycle of rate increases?
TN: Yes, I think to answer your last question first, I think what would be best is a short and abrupt cycle because it would really put a stop on the threat of inflation and so on and so forth. So like a 50 basis point hike in March would probably be the best solution we could find. But when we look at the yield curve flattening first, it is a traditional signal of a looming recession. So if you look at today’s employment data in the US, there was a loss of 300,000 jobs. So we’re in this weird place where we have booming inflation and a loss of 300,000 jobs. So it’s like the late 1970 stagflation. I’m not going to say we’re necessarily there, but if you just look at today, it seems like right. So what the yield curve flattening means is bond traders are pretty nervous and stagnation is ugly. So they seem to be saying that they don’t believe that the Fed will take the necessary action on inflation in the short term. So JPOW is not Volker is really what they’re saying. Paul Volcker from the 1980s. So bond traders can really make things difficult on both the Fed and equity markets.
So the Fed has a real balancing act to do. They don’t want equity markets to crater, but they don’t want bond traders to kind of extract their vengeance on the Fed and equity market. So if we don’t see rates rise, if we don’t see the balance sheet reduced, then bond traders are not going to be happy and it could get ugly in safety, too.
PS: I wonder what all this means for the US dollar. Where does the US dollar hit going forward and how do you see Euro and Yen perform against the greenback?
TN: Yes, again, that depends on which direction the Fed takes. If the Fed’s approach is weak and if fiscal support from Congress is weak or it doesn’t come, as many in equity markets seem to be implying, then the dollar will likely level out or even depreciate a bit. That would mean a stronger Euro and yen versus the dollar in a relative sense. And currencies are all relative. If the Fed resumes the hawkish talk that they started last week in Jpow’s comments and then on Sunday and Monday through some of the regional presence, then the dollar will strengthen and the Euro and the yen will weaken. Obviously on a relative basis. There’s not a lot of strength in Europe. And especially when you look at some of the geopolitical issues around, say, Ukraine and Russia, there’s a lot of risk in Europe. So people are really nervous about Europe and then Japan. Yeah, it’s stronger than Europe, but that’s really not saying a lot. So the yen will strengthen on a relative basis, but it’s not necessarily an endorsement of the strength of the economy.
SM: Tony, thanks so much for speaking with us this morning. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, talking to us about some of the trends that will be moving markets in the weeks and months ahead.
WSN: Yeah, it looks like markets are headed towards a very volatile period for the moment. So the Nest did really well. But what we do know is the results of Spotify and also Meta were disappointing. And after hours trading, these stocks took a huge hitting. Even PayPal, which results came out the night before, also is down 20 over percent. It looks like markets are seeing this glass as half empty rather than half full so the minute you disappoint right you really get whacked down because everyone basically was already making money the year before so their patience in terms of like writing out this maybe dip in earnings is just not there.
PS: It’s a consequence of so many issues, isn’t it? Because we saw this dip even before the real earnings came out, isn’t it? Because that was when JPY in the earlier minutes said that they were going to raise interest rates and also accelerate tapering and then I think these really disappointing earnings I think just compounded the matters worse but you do see some pickup going forward so whether they’re selective opportunities you don’t play the sector, you don’t play the themes but you really go stock by stock now, isn’t it?
WSN: Yeah, you have to take a very bottom up approach. The easy money is clearly made but you can see a shift of money and this is what Tony is saying is there’s a shift towards commodity prices right? So brand crew this morning is close to $90 barrel. It’s close to seven year high. This is despite the fact that OPEC has said that they are going to raise output but there’s a lot of judges because of the geopolitical tensions that we’re seeing coming out of Ukraine but maybe it’s also due to the fact that oil is truly an inflation play and inflation is here. It’s not transitory at all.
PS: Yeah, and I just think I do see some improvement also in Bitcoin right? If you can see across ECM and Bitcoin up actually marginally just one and a half percent you see some good news there but I wonder if this is a sign of whether that the pressure is really on the equities market going forward but the rest are still holding resilient.
