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BFM 89.9 Market Watch: Nasdaq Up Thanks To AI

This podcast is originally produced and published by BFM 89.9 and can be found at bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/us-economic-data-equities-inflation-bond-markets

In this podcast episode, BFM 89.9 Market Watch speaks with Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, to discuss the current state of the economy and the stock market. Nash predicts that GDP growth will be around 1% this year, which is a downgrade from previous estimates. He suggests that, due to inflation, firms have been passing on their costs to customers, but with lower volumes expected, there will be a focus on efficiency in the latter half of 2024 and into 2025. Nash also notes that there is a lot of excitement in the tech industry surrounding generative AI, which could bring about efficiencies and revenue opportunities for companies. This has resulted in a rally in tech stocks, despite the lower GDP growth estimates. However, Nash acknowledges that it’s difficult to predict how long this rally will last and whether companies’ valuations will come back down to earth eventually.

Regarding the bond market, Nash suggests that it has historically been more accurate in predicting interest rates compared to central bank prognostications. Currently, bonds are indicating that a recession is coming, but Nash believes there is only a slowdown expected, not a full-blown recession. Furthermore, he suggests that the Fed may be late to respond to this slowdown, as central banks are typically reactive organizations. Nash also discusses the recent performance of safe-haven assets such as the yen, gold, and the US dollar, and suggests that this is due to concerns over the Omicron variant and rising inflation.

Overall, Nash predicts that there will be a focus on efficiency and cautious optimism in the stock market in the coming years. He also suggests that it’s important to remain cautious and vigilant in the current economic climate, as there are a number of uncertainties and potential risks.

Transcript:

BFM

This is a podcast from BFM 89.9. The business station.

BFM

BFM 89.9. 7:06 A.m. On Thursday the 30 March. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning. In half an hour, we’re going to discuss whether the worst is over for the Sri Lankan economy after it secured a 3 billion U. S. Dollar bailout last week from the IMF th. But as always, we’re going to kick start the morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.

BFM

It was almost perfect. Almost perfect because almost every market was upset one. So let’s name the guilty one. It was the Shanghai Composite Index, which was down 0.2%, but otherwise us all in the green. The Dow was up 1%, S&P 500 up 1.4%, Nasdaq up 1.8%. In fact, if you look at the Nasdaq, this is the shocking thing, right? I thought tech was dead. Growth is over. Well, it ain’t the case because the Nasdaq is up 14% on a year to date basis, this has been the stellar outperformer. Now, if we look at Asian Nikkei was up 1.3%, Hang Seng up 2.1%. Shanghai, like I said, was the one that was down 0.2%. Singapore Straits Times Index, up 0.2%. And our very own FBMKLCI currently up 0.8% to 1420 points.

BFM

All right, so for some thoughts on what’s moving markets we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Thanks, as always, for joining us. Now, given recent performance in US. Equities, investors seem to be looking beyond the challenges in the financial sector and recognizing that US economic growth continues to be resilient. Could investors be headed for a rude shock, though?

Tony

Well, it’s a really interesting question. I think those investors who expect rapid GDP growth, I think will be disappointed. We expect GDP growth to be kind of around 1% this year. That’s downgraded from a couple of months ago. And so it’s not necessarily overall economic growth that will happen. There will be secural growth. And what we’ll see through the rest of, say, this year and into 2025 is a focus on efficiency. What’s been happening is, because of inflation, firms have been passing on their margins or been passing on their costs and more than their costs to their customers. Okay. And so with a lower volume. So we’re going to see a focus on efficiency in the back half of 2024 and into 2025. So you will see equity performance in pockets. But in general, we’ll likely see things sideways unless we see the Fed change footing dramatically, which is still not really expected.

BFM

Okay, so, Tony, is that pocket the Nasdaq? Because help me understand this. Right? Since December, it’s actually up 20%. And I thought growth is great. What’s going on?

Tony

Well, in tech right now, there’s a lot of excitement over generative AI. This is ChatGPT and the other kind of applications of generative artificial intelligence. And so investors are looking at companies everything from semiconductors to say, Meta and saying gosh generative AI, which is kind of the next milestone for AI, could really change these companies and could really bring about efficiencies and could really bring about these revenue opportunities. So there’s a lot happening in tech, of course, but in general, when you look at companies like Microsoft that has made the major investment in OpenAI and you look at Google and their new AI kind of chat item that’s out there and then other companies. It’s similar to I know you guys are too young to know this, but in 2000, whenever a company would release a website, their stock would get a bump. And so what we’re seeing right now is whenever companies release an offering or say they are implementing some sort of generative artificial intelligence or ChatGPT or something like that, they’re getting a bump in their equity price.

BFM

Okay, but how long can this rally kind of last? There seems to be a disconnect because you just told us GDP is 1% and then companies earnings probably aren’t going to be that great for the moment. Yet markets seem to ignore the news. Will they all come back down to earth eventually?

Tony

Well, it depends on how you define down to earth. Right? Is down to earth 2018 valuations and 2018 market levels maybe. Again, it really depends on how the market views, I think generally, how the market views activities by central banks and the Fed. So if the Fed has really isolated the banking crisis, which I believe they have, then the Fed can continue to raise rates and then they can continue to shrink their balance sheet. Now they just grew their balance sheet by a lot by bailing out banks. But they can shrink their balance sheet in certain areas, say mortgages, those sorts of things. So that can help to bring some of these valuations down to earth. But keep in mind, we’re going into a presidential election year in 2024. And so it’s really hard to determine, does the US administration not want a recession or do they want a terrible recession so they can be seen to be passing a fiscal stimulus plan. So I don’t know what their calculus is. They can either keep the economy steaming ahead or they can try to drive the economy into the recession so they can be seen to be passing massive stimulus packages.

BFM

Tony, in one of your panel commentaries, a suggestion was made that bond markets were more accurate in predicting rates compared to central bank prognostications. Why is that so? And what are they currently saying about future Fed hikes?

Tony

Well, the first thing kind of every amateur loves to be a central bank prognosticator, so those are rarely right. But bonds. So if you look at a year ago, bonds were telling the Fed that they needed to raise rates because inflation was coming and they waited until too late. Right now, bonds are saying that a recession is coming and the Fed is continuing to tighten and the Fed is always late. Central banks are typically always late because they are a reactive organization and that’s how they’re designed to be. Are bonds going to be absolutely right about a recession coming later in the year? I’m not really sure. Again, we think there’s a slowdown, but we don’t necessarily think there’s a recession. And when we use the R word, we also have to be careful because it can be defined any way we want. Right. Because we had two consecutive quarters of negative growth last year and nobody says that we had a recession last year. So a recession kind of is whatever we define it as today.

BFM

Okay, well in the last two, three weeks there’s been clear, three clear safe haven assets: yen, gold, and US dollar. Do you think these three asset classes still can be safe haven assets?

Tony

It’s really hard for the dollar and gold to be safe haven assets at the same time. For the yen, I think with the change of the governor, the chairman of the BOJ, and Japan of course is already doing this, but I think they have to be very careful. That happens in, I think late next month. And so if they can handle that transition in an easy, seamless way, I think we can probably continue to do that. Gold? I’m not entirely sure. I know there are a lot of people out there pumping gold right now, and there are a lot of people kind of naysaying the dollar right now. Trying to say that Saudi signed some agreement. Saudi Arabia signed some agreement to deal in US dollars, and Russia signed Chinese Yuan and Russia signed an agreement to deal in Chinese Yuan or whatever. But those are very small, nominally very small. So I do think the dollar will remain a safe haven in times of turbulence. Japanese yen probably because currencies are all on a relative basis. They’re all on a relative basis. Gold, I don’t think gold is going to fluctuate a lot, but I think gold investors can be very fickle. So I’d be really careful of that one.

BFM

Tony, thanks as always for the chat. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. Commenting there a little bit about the difference in market exuberance in tech sector compared with, I suppose the sentiment that perhaps the US could be heading towards a recession or at least markedly slower growth than what was anticipated early on.

BFM

But I think it’s interesting that Tony brought up the reason why, which is, it’s generative AI, well ChatGPT, right. So much excitement about it and I think questions about is it a disruption or is it an opportunity? But I think markets thinking, hey, which companies are going to get involved in this.

BFM

If you see a company that’s involved in AI, if they have their own AI bot or whatever, oh, that must.

BFM

Be a good thing.

BFM

It reminds me so much of the hype over the Metaverse not that long ago when Facebook or Meta decided to take that angle. And right now, there’s no no one’s talking about the Metaverse metabolism.

BFM

What are you talking about, Charles? Everybody’s forgotten about it. Right. So there are always trends that come and go. Let’s see who really can monetize it. That’s the thing at the end of the day.

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[BFM Market Watch] Is The Market Behaving Rationally?

This podcast was first and originally published on the BFM: The Business Station podcast with link here: https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/us-markets-meta-chevron-fed-rate-hikes-equities-market-rally

The CEO of Complete Intelligence, Tony Nash, spoke about the recent financial events in the market. In regards to Meta, Tony mentioned that the worst for Meta’s share price is over, but job cuts are still to come. Although Meta beat revenue estimates, ad impressions rose by 20%, but the price per impression fell by 22%. Tony also discussed the recent Fed interest rate hike by 25 bips, which was expected and the market welcomed it. Tony says there are likely to be at least two more rate hikes before the current tightening cycle is over. He also mentions that the market is excited but will take a closer look at the statement once they have a better understanding.

Tony also mentioned that there is some irrationality in the market because corporate earnings have been disappointing, but investors are bought off by the stock buybacks. The oil companies, Chevron and Exxon, made windfall profits due to cheap oil and fat refining margins. The refineries were operating at 94% capacity and have crack spreads and refining margins way above normal. The oil and gas companies have not invested in infrastructure since 2014, due to governments and media bullying over ESG and cost. The only option for them is to return the profits to shareholders through stock buybacks.

Transcript

BFM

This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. BFM 89.9. Good morning. You are listening to the morning run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning and Chong Tjen San. It is 7:05 A. M. On Thursday the 2 February. We were off yesterday because of Federal Territories Day, but we are back to bring you through the rest of the week. In half an hour, we’re going to discuss the probability of a Trump 2024 presidential run. But as always, let’s kick start the morning with a recap on how global markets closed overnight.

BFM

All US markets ended higher as the market shared the Fed’s 25 basis point rate increase. The dollar was up marginally by 0.2%, S&P 500 up by 1%, and the Nasdaq was up by 2%. Asian markets, they were all in the green. The Nikkie was up by 0.1%. Hang Seng was up by 1%, Shanghai Composite up by 0.9%. The Straits Times Index, it was up by 0.4%. But the FBMKLC, it was closed for Federal Territory Day

BFM

As mentioned and for some insights into what’s moving markets this morning, we’re going to be speaking to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Thanks as always for joining us. Now, markets rallied on the back of the Fed, raising interest rates by 25 bips. But before we get into that, I would want to talk about some of the corporate earnings that we saw overnight, namely coming from Meta. The markets were also quite happy with what came up there, up 18% in after hours trading on the back of better than expected sales, do you think this is the worst over for Meta?

Tony

I do think the worst in terms of share price is over. I don’t think their job cuts are over. I think they’re learning how to operate in this environment. So the last two to three years has been pretty easy for a tech company as people were kind of trapped inside and didn’t really have a lot to do. They looked for things online and ad revenue was great for Meta and ad driven companies, but what we saw in there, although they beat revenue estimates, they beat their guide by almost 3%. They announced a $40 billion share buyback, all that’s great news. And the stocks up almost 20% after hours. But keynote in their earnings release, Ad Impressions rose by 20%. Remember, they’re an ad driven business. Ad Impressions rose by 23%, but price per Impression fell by 22%. So they’re not able to push price. They’ve had to drop their price and raise their volume, which is the opposite of what we’re seeing with a lot of retailers and other firms in the US where they can actually push price in light of and accept lower volumes at higher prices.

BFM

And Tony, as expected, the Fed raise rates by 25 bips. Was this in line with what you were expecting, and are we close to the end of the current tightening cycle?

Tony

Yeah, you know, I think pretty much everyone expected 25. There was a slight chance of 50, but everyone pretty much expected 25. The market welcomed it very happily, and they’re still thinking there’s only one rate rise left. But Chair Powell made it very clear that there are a couple of more rate hikes to get to that level we think is “appropriately restrictive.” Those are his words. So we’re looking for at least two more rate hikes before this is over. And the Fed is also going likely to accelerate their quantitative tightening. Okay? So that’s taking assets off of their balance sheet, which is basically hoovering up the money supply in the US. So the market will get tighter. And do we think we’re at the end? We don’t think we’re at the end. The interest rates aren’t the only tool they can use. So the market’s very excited right now, almost a relief. But I think as they look through his statement in detail, I think they’ll take a second look at expectations.

BFM

So let’s build on that. Tony, so you’re basically saying that because when I look at how markets have performed on a year to date basis, S&P up 7.5%, NASDAQ up 12%, this very much on the back of the Fed, going from a hawk to a dove. Do you think that there is some irrationality there?

Tony

I do, actually, because, you know, if you look at corporate earnings announced so far, they’re very disappointing. And so investors are expecting easy conditions to return so that underwhelming earnings are acceptable. So what did Facebook have to do? Their EPS underwhelmed by like 55%. Okay. They had to issue $40 billion in stock buybacks. So investors are basically bought off, and that’s why the stock is rising. But many other people reporting are not seeing the sales that they expected or didn’t see the sales they expected in Q4. And their costs, meaning the cost of employees and raw materials, these sorts of things. Cost of employees are up. Raw materials are down slightly, definitely year on year, but certainly quarter on quarter, they’re down slightly. But earnings are not what people had hoped for. And that’s the real problem we’re seeing in market. So the earnings picture is not reflecting the valuation picture.

BFM

Okay, so that may be the general picture, but if we zoom into oil companies or the two largest US oil companies, Chevron and Exxon, they made more money in 2022 than ever before, posting record earnings in their latest results. How are these windfall profits achieved? And I guess how sustainable is this going into the new year?

Tony

They were largely achieved on the back of cheap oil through the SPR releases and very fat refining margins. So we’ve had refineries in the US operating at about 94% capacity, which is way over what they’re designed for. And we have crack spreads and refining margins way above what is normal. So those refineries are booking profits at a record pace. And so what do they do? If you’re an oil and gas company and the government keeps bullying you over ESG and Cost, and media keeps bullying you over ESG and Cost, oil and gas companies have not invested in infrastructure in upstream or midstream since at least 2014. So if they invest in that, they’re going to be punished. So what do they do? They return it to shareholders. So you have a $75 billion buyback, because that’s really the only option they have. Otherwise, they’re going to get punished by governments, they’re going to get punished by media, and they’re going to get punished by investors. So they have to do this.

BFM

Okay, but let’s talk about OPEC Plus because there was a meeting, and I want to talk about oil prices, because the OPEC Plus Committee has recommended keeping crude production steady as the oil market awaits clarity. What does this then mean for prices? If I look at WTI, currently $77 a barrel, down 4.5%. What’s your view, Tony?

Tony

Well, I think OPEC is taking a lot of the excitement in markets for the past couple of months has been China opening. Ever since December, right? China is going to open and save us all. And that also hit crude markets. People looking at crude prices and going, oh, gosh, China is going to open. We’re going to see jet fuel and gasoline, petrol and other fuels consumption rise dramatically. Well, the opening has been slower than people expected in December, and it’s still not happening at the pace that many Westerners expected. And so I think OPEC is looking at crude consumption and draws from storage and saying, we just need to hold off on raising our level of production. We’re in a good zone with the price right now. We don’t see a dramatic impact. We expect recessions in the west, and we expect China to come back online slowly. So we’re not going to increase production right now. And so I think that’s the prudent thing to do. If I’m an oil producer, that’s what I’m doing, because I want demand to lead production increases. I want to see that people are going to use what I’m going to pull out of the ground, and I want to see pricing pressure before I agree to drill more.

BFM

Yeah, but, Tony, at the same time, what’s interesting to me is the US. Now, during the summer season, President Biden released its reserves, right? Because pump prices were just really very high. Doesn’t this change the equation? If I’m American now, wouldn’t I want to rebuild my reserves at this current level?

Tony

Well, yes and no. The SPR release was really done to get prices down for the US Midterm Elections. That’s really all it was about. Now the SPR is depleted dramatically, so the buying that will have to happen to refill the SPR will put upward pressure on prices. So I think we have to be really careful. If China is, let’s say in March, they start to come aggressively back online and the US starts buying to refill the SPR in Q2, then that’s an accelerator for crude prices in Q2and Q3. Right. So will Biden then beg OPEC again to raise their output? Maybe. China has already forward bought a lot of its crude supply. So if the US is going to choose to refill the SPR at elevated prices, it’s really not the brightest move.

BFM

Tony, thanks very much for speaking to us. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets, commenting there on the earnings report of Apple, if not Apple, I’m sorry, Meta. That just came overnight. Apple is to come. So we’re going to be watching out for that before the week ends.

BFM

Let’s turn our attention, though, to what’s happening over in India, where the Adani saga has really taken attention by storm. Gautam, Adani’s flagship firm, called off its 2.5 billion US dollar share sale in a dramatic reversal yesterday as a route sparked by US short seller Hindenburg. Research criticism wiped out more than $80 billion off the value of the Indian tycoon stocks.

BFM

And the plunge accelerated after Bloomberg News reported credit Suisse Group AG has stopped accepting bonds of Adani’s Group of companies as collateral for margin loans. Adani Enterprises was offering shares to investors at $38 to $40 a share, but the stock closed yesterday at $26.13, which is 31% below the bottom price of the pricing range.

BFM

I think let’s take a bit of a step back, right, in terms of how important Adani is to the Indian economy in its way. They are like one of the major producers of energy, and then we’re talking about cement. They are such a huge conglomerate and their fortunes have been really tied to the rise of Nadira Modi. Right. Because the two, the Adani and Modi, are supposedly very close. And so when Adani came back with this 413 page objection, the allegations are all untrue. He also Adani took the step of saying that you’re attacking India as a nation. And then Hindenburg said, look, this has nothing to do with nationalism. Right. You’re just a company where we are not comfortable with your numbers. And then it’s this back and forth. And what was amazing was the share sale was almost going to happen. And the economists reported this is allegedly that the five largest and richest families in India were going to bail this company out by participating in the share sale, but now it’s not happening.

BFM

That’s right. I mean, that came as a big surprise, the fact that they managed to get buyers who were willing to buy these shares at such a high price compared to what the market was having. So, as mentioned, you said, Jensen, they would be buying it at a loss. But yeah, Adani said that the company’s board felt that going ahead with this share issue would not be morally correct because of that big gap in what the prices are being sold for now.

BFM

Yeah, but it was really amazing. You will never get a scenario similar in, let’s say, in America, where the richest families bail out another rich family. Right. So that’s what the economists point out, that doing business in India is very, very different. But the share price, of course, down 45% on a year to date basis.

BFM

I really wonder what they can do to build up to the levels that they were before. I mean, maybe it’s not going to happen again. So something to watch, for sure. This has taken everyone, really by surprise. The twists and turns in the saga at 718 in the morning. We’re going to take a quick break and we’ll come back with more top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned to BFM 89.9.

BFM

You have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the BFM app.

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BFM Market Watch: King Dollar Deposed For Now

This podcast was first and originally published on https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/bank-of-japan-monetary-policy-revisal-japanese-yen-us-fed-rates-markets-outlook

The CEO of Compete Intelligence, Tony Nash, was interviewed on BFM to discuss the current state of the US markets.

The S&P fell 1.6%, the worst decline in a month, and the tech-heavy Nasdaq snapped a seven-day rally, reversing gains of more than 1%. Nash suggests that this may be due to bad economic data, specifically PPI and retail sales falling, but also notes that consumer is still strong. Nash explains that the US economy is built on services, so people may be trying to confirm their downward bias in things, and when bad news is reported, a sell-off day occurs. Nash also mentions that if PPI falls, that should mean inflation is slowing, which should mean the Fed would ease a little and slow down on rate rises.

He also mentions that markets may be spooked by all the announcements regarding job cuts, such as Microsoft announcing they plan to cut 10,000 jobs and Bank of America telling their executives to pause hiring. Nash suggests that these job cuts are small in terms of the gap that we see in the US workforce, which is still missing millions of jobs in terms of the openings versus the available people.

Nash also mentions the yen tumbled yesterday after the BOJ went against market expectations by keeping its yield curve tolerance ban unchanged. He suggests that the BOJ is managing the yield curve to suppress borrowing costs and wants to keep it below 0.5%. Nash also mentions that Japan’s central bank is getting pressure from other central banks to keep their rates low, this means that if Japan lets their rates rise, then that would have a knock-on effect around the world and cause a repricing of government debt all around the world.

Nash concludes by saying that he expects a weaker yen, but doesn’t think we would necessarily hit those lows.

Transcript

BFM

This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, The Business Station. BFM 89.9. It’s 7:06, Thursday, the 19 January, and you’re listening to the Morning Run with Chong Tjen San and I’m Wong Shou Ning. And earlier on, we did ask our listeners how traffic is like and Roberto said traffic today really smooth and super low compared to just yesterday. He loves Chinese New Year in KL. And so do we. I just love Chinese New York because I like the feasting and I like the ang bao collecting.

BFM

I get the hint.

BFM

Yes, we’re all looking at you, Tjen San. But in 30 minutes, we will be speaking to Angela Hahn of Bloomberg Intelligence on the impact of China’s reopening to Markhouse gaming and hospitality sector. But in the meantime, let’s recap how global markets closed yesterday.

BFM

After a good run, all key US. Markets ended down yesterday. The Dow was down 1.8%, S&P 500 down 1.6%. The Nasdaq was down 1.2%. In terms of Asian markets, the Nikkei was up by 2.5%, Hang Seng up by 0.5%. The Shanghai Composite Index, it was unchanged, the Straits Times Index, it was up by 0.3%, and the FBMKLCI it was down by 0.3%.

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BFM

Why are we always again and again there’s a trend here for sure. But to tell us where international markets are heading, we have on the line with us Tony Nash, CEO of Compete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony. Help us understand what’s happening in US markets. Because the S&P fell 1.6% is the worst decline in a month. Tech heavy Nasdaq snapped a seven-day rally, reversing gains of more than 1%. Is this just really due to bad economic data?

Tony

Yeah, we saw PPI and retail sales fall today. The weird part is consumer is still strong. The US economy is really built on services, so I think people are trying to confirm their downward bias in things. And whenever we see bad news, we see a sell off day. So I’m not necessarily sure I would read that much into it, aside from just there was really nothing else going on. So people saw some bad PPI news and they were negative. So if we see downward PPI, that should mean inflation is slowing, which should mean the Fed would ease a little. Not ease, but would slow down on rate rises a bit. So that should have been positive news for markets. So it’s just kind of a weird read of some of that data.

BFM

Do you think markets are also spooked by all these announcements with regards to job cuts? Because Microsoft says they plan to cut 10,000 jobs. Amazon of course, made announcements last week, and even Bank of America is it telling their executives to pause hiring. Not great for the mood on Wall Street?

Tony

Well, maybe, but I think those job cuts are actually kind of small in terms of the gap that we see. So the US is still missing millions of jobs in terms of the openings versus the available people so I think there’s something like 7 million jobs open. We also had a million people post COVID not come back to work. So we have a gap in the workforce, just a status quo workforce of a million people, but we have something like 7 million open positions. So when Microsoft lays off 10,000 people or Goldman lays off 4000 people, sure, it’s tragic. It’s definitely tragic for those individuals. But in terms of the overall health of the economy, it really doesn’t make that much of a difference.

BFM

And Tony, the yen tumbled yesterday after the BOJ went against market expectations by keeping its yield curve tolerance ban unchanged. What possible reasons would the central bank have for keeping this status quo?

Tony

Yes, so the BOJ is managing the yield curve to suppress borrowing costs and they want to keep it below kind of 0.5%. There have been some hedge funds and some big investors who’ve been betting that they would tighten it. And the BOJ is just bigger. I mean, when they came back and they said, we’re going to hold the line at 0.5, they spent about $100 billion so far this month to defend that and they have plenty of resources to hold that. So the release issue is this is if Japan lets their interest rates rise, then Japanese, say, banks and pension funds and other investors would consider selling debt from other parts in the world and buying Japanese debt. Okay, so if Japan lets their rates rise, then that would have a knock on effect around the world and that would cause a repricing of government debt all around the world. So it’s not just the BOJ wanting to keep this for Japanese domestic reasons. They’re getting pressure from other central banks to keep their rates low.

BFM

Okay, Tony, but what does this then all mean for the yen? I mean, at its worst point, the yen was trading 150 against the US dollar. Today it’s 128. That’s a very wide range in just a few months. So what are your expectations?

Tony

It is yeah, certainly I would look for a weaker yen. I don’t know that we would necessarily hit those lows. But the BOJ has made their stance clear. The BOJ has a new head coming in in a few months. I would say they’re unlikely to dramatically change policy with a new head because they don’t want to make people nervous. So I think they’re going to aggressively defend the status quo. So I don’t necessarily think you see a yen appreciating dramatically from here. I think the bias is really toward the downside.

BFM

Okay, staying on the topic of currencies then, what’s your view on US dollar? We’re just looking at the Bloomberg Dollar Spot Index this morning. It’s already down 1.5% on a year to date basis. The era of King dollar, is it over?

Tony

Well, I think not necessarily. If you’re looking at the DXY, it’s really heavy on the euro. And so we’ve seen Europe do better than many people thought through the winter because we haven’t had a cold winter there and energy prices haven’t bitten as hard as many people thought they would. So I think Europe is doing better and the Euro is doing better than many people thought. And everything in Currencies is relative. China is opening, although it’s gradually. China is opening. And so that’s good for CNY. Again, in a relative basis, I think there is downward pressure on the dollar, but I don’t necessarily think we’re over on that. I don’t think we’re heading straight down to, say, 95. I think we’re going to see some back and forth over the next couple of months as we figure out what the forward trajectory of the dollar is. And a lot of that really has to do with what direction will the Fed take in terms of their rate hikes and their quantitative tightening. And it has to do with treasury activity from the US. Treasury. How will they spend, what will they do, how will they fund the US government?

BFM

Tony, some analysts are saying that without a recovery in the Chinese economy, a global recession is all but assured. But what are your thoughts on this?

Tony

I don’t necessarily think that’s the case. I think China will do okay this year, and I think regardless, Europe will likely dip into recession this year, although fairly moderate. In the US, you see a very strong employment environment. And so employment is one of the key considerations for recession. So I don’t believe the US. Will dip into recession really on the back of employment news more than anything else. And so once we see some of these layoffs with larger companies and we get through this as, say, equity valuations stabilize, I think we’ll start to see a renormalization in the US economy as the Fed kind of takes the foot off the brake of the US economy. Of course, the Fed will continue to raise rates, but they’ll do it at a much slower pace, and that will make people much more comfortable in doing things like investing capital and so on and so forth, that will help the US to grow.

BFM

All right, thank you very much for your time. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his outlook for the world economies and also markets in the coming weeks. I think very much the question everyone has on their mind is Fed rates. What is the terminal rate? Will they basically raise rates too much and then cause the US. Tip into a recession? But I see increasingly our guests, our commentators sounding a little bit less pessimistic, hinting that perhaps we’re going to have a soft landing rather than a hard landing.

BFM

Yeah, I think it’s really on the back of the really still strong employment in the US. I mean, he did mention there’s still 7 million jobs available in the US. And there are one million people post COVID that didn’t come back to work. And I think that really is his key point, that the US may not slip into recession, but it looks like EU will and China, it looks like they are really on track to a better recovery this year. I’ve seen some economists say that GDP growth could be like five to 6% as well.

BFM

I see that consensus figure that range is around there for China’s GDP for 2023. Now, turning our attention to corporate that released results they reported, which is Alcoa excuse me, which is aluminium company. They reported fourth quarter results earlier today, which saw losses narrow to $374,000,000. Loss per share as a result was $2.12. The loss included a 270 million charge related to tax expense. Revenue did decline 20% to $2.66 billion.

BFM

And Alcoa attributed the decline in revenue to lower prices for both Alumina and aluminium. Additionally, Alcoa will see some executive leadership changes effective February 1, including CFO William Oplinger reassignment to chief operations officer, in addition to his executive vice president role.

BFM

Okay, the street doesn’t really like this stock when you look at Bloomberg. Five buys, only seven holes, no sells. Consensus target price for the stock, $52.18. During regular market hours, the stock was already down one dollars. And now I think we need to talk about one of the world’s biggest companies, Apple. They are expanding their smart home lineup, taking on Amazon and Google. Are you surprised by this move?

BFM

Jensen not surprised at all. I think Apple is really the leader in terms of innovation, and we’ve seen it over the years, so no surprises there. So I think they’re launching some new devices. There’s a smart display tablet, there’s a HomePod. There’s a TV box and a MacBook and Mac mini using their cutting edge new processor, which is the M Two chip.

BFM

Are you going to buy any of these gadgets? You don’t even use an Apple phone. You haven’t joined a cult. You’re about the only one on the morning run. You and Philip sees that hanging on.

BFM

The iPad at home, but they’re quite old.

BFM

Okay, but will this make a dent to Apple’s earnings? Perhaps. I think they are trying to diversify their product range, because the iPhone, I think, hasn’t done as well as expected. If you look at Apple or Cost, still a darling on Wall Street. 36 buys, eight holes, two sells. Consensus target price for this to $169.24. At regular market hours, it was down seventy three cents to one hundred and thirty five dollars and twenty one cents. I, for one, will be curious as to what these products will be or how they’ll fare. Up next, of course, we’ll cover the top stories in the newspapers and portal. Stay tuned for that. BFM 89.9 you have been listening to a podcast from BFM 89.9, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the BFM app.

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Slower US rate hikes could help ‘buy time’, allow businesses to plan better

This video interview is owned by Channel News Asia, and the original source can be found at https://youtu.be/U_Im05ClsN0

The United States Federal Reserve’s plan to ease its pace of interest rate hikes as soon as December would bring some relief for markets concerned about the central bank overtightening too quickly, Mr. Tony Nash, founder and chief executive of data analytics firm Complete Intelligence, told CNA’s Asia First.

Transcript

CNA: Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell has signaled policymakers could slow interest rate increases starting this month. That sets the stage for a possible to downshift to a 50bps rate hike when Fed officials gather again in two weeks.

Powell: Monetary policy affects the economy and inflation with uncertain lags. And the full effects of our rapid tightening so far are yet to be felt.

Thus it makes sense to moderate the pace of our rate increases as we approach the level of restraint that will be sufficient to bring inflation down. The time for moderating the pace of rate increases may come as soon as the December meeting.

CNA: But it isn’t quite a dovish turn. The U.S Central Bank Chief also stressed that they have a long way to go in restoring price stability despite some promising developments.

Mr. Powell warns against reading too much into one month of inflation data saying that the FED has yet to see clear progress on that front. In order to gain control of inflation, the Fed chair says the American labor market also has to loosen up to reduce upward pressure on wages. Job gains in the country remain high at nearly 300,000 positions per month and borrowing costs are likely to remain restrictive for some time to tamp down rapid price surges.

This is where U.S interest rates stand after an unprecedented series of four 75 bps rate hikes. Policymakers projected earlier that this could go as high as 4.6 percent but Powell says they will likely need to keep lifting rates more and go beyond that level until the inflation fight is done.

The less hawkish tone from Powell Boyd U.S market stow and the S&P500 erased losses it searched three percent. The Dow gained two percent while the NASDAQ jumped more than 4.4 percent. the 10-year treasury yield also dipped as Bond Traders dialed back their expectations on how high the Fed may push interest rates while the U.S dollar retreated.

Tony Nash is founder and CEO of Complete Intelligence joining us from Houston, Texas for some analysis. Now Tony, just looking at Powell’s comments, the first differs in some way with what the Fed and its officials have been telling us earlier in the year and how we’ll get there fast to try to reach the terminal rate. But now it’s signaling that it will get there slower. What is this going to mean for businesses and consumers in the US?

Tony: I think what it means is we’re going to get to the same destination. It’s just going to take a little bit more time to get there. So the Fed has seen jobs turn around they’ve seen jobs aren’t necessarily slowing but the rate of rise in open jobs is slowing. We’ve seen mortgage rates go up. We’ve seen the rate of inflation rise slowly.

So the Fed is seeing some things that they want and they’re worried about over-tightening too quickly. Because what we’ve seen so far is really just interest rate rises. They really haven’t even started quantitative tightening yet. I mean they’ve done a little bit maybe a couple hundred billion dollars. But they have nine trillion dollars on their books give or take.

They haven’t even started QT yet. And they’re starting to see inflation and some of these pressures on markets at least slowed down a little bit. So I think they’re saying “hey guys we’re still going to get to a terminal rate of five percent or five and a half percent but we’re going gonna slow it down from here unless we see things accelerate again.”

CNA: When do you think we will actually see that five to five and a half percent?

Tony: You’ll see it in the first quarter. You know if we do say 50bps in December and maybe another 50 in January, we’ll see some 25bps hikes after that but I think what markets the cyber leaf that markets are giving right now is just saying. Okay, we’re not at 100 or 75 in December.

I think that’s a big size that you saw today and you know. It raising at 75bps per meeting just put some real planning challenges in front of operators people, who run companies. So if they slow down that pace and people know we’re still going to get to that 5 to 5.5%, it allows people to plan a little bit more thoughtfully, and a little bit more intelligently.

I think this does relieve some people of the worries of the Fed over-tightening too quickly and it also relieves worries that the Fed is only relying on monetary policy. They’re not relying on interest rates I’m sorry and they’re not relying on quantitative tightening. so the Federal balanced approach sometime in Q1.

CNA: Okay, you also mentioned before in our past conversations, the concern that the market has been having for this week especially since it’s China’s lockdowns and you see these restrictions ending gradually. What is that going to mean for Energy prices and inflation?

We see Energy prices say now they’re what high 70s low 80s somewhere in that range. We do see a rise of say crude oil prices by about 30 percent once China fully opens. We could easily be 110-120 a barrel once China fully opens. And so there will be pressure on global energy markets once China opens. Other commodity prices will see the same because we’re just not seeing the level of consumption in China that we expect.

What we also expect is for Equity markets to turn away from the U.S. and more toward Asia. So the US has attracted a lot of investment over the past year partly because of the strong dollar partly because of kind of a risk-off mentality consolidating in U.S markets. As China opens and there becomes more activity in Asia than we would expect, some of that money to draw down out of the US and go back to Asia.

CNA: Can you look at the jobs market in the US even as we expect this potential pivot towards Asia for stock market investors? The jobs market and the picture on wages there because the ADP data shows that there seems to be a cooling in demand for labor how soon do you think we can see a broadening out to the broader jobs market?

Tony: You would have broader cooling of demand in the jobs market I think, that’s definitely hidden tech. You’ve seen a lot of layoffs in technology over the past say three weeks. And that will cascade out. I don’t necessarily see think that you’ll see that in places like energy, but you will see that in maybe finance, some aspects of financial services. You’ve seen some of that and say mortgage brokers and this sort of thing so you’ll see that in some aspects of financial services. Some aspects of say manufacturing at the edges. but I do think there’s a lot of growth in U.S manufacturing as this reassuring narrative really takes uh gets momentum in North America. And so even though we may shed some manufacturing jobs in one area I think we’ll see growth in manufacturing jobs in other areas.

CNA: Okay, Tony. We’ll leave it there for today. Thanks for sharing your analysis with us. Tony Nash is founder and CEO of Complete Intelligence.

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Nasdaq Breaks 3-Day Winning Streak

This podcast was originally published on https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/nasdaq-tech-stocks-sell-off-meta-alphabet-apple-amazon

Investors were not impressed by results from Meta and Alphabet leading to a sell-off in tech stocks on Wall Street. We speak to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, to find out how results from Apple and Amazon set to come out soon might impact overall market sentiment.

Transcript

BFM

This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, The Business Station.

BFM

BFM 89 Nine. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Keith Kam. It’s 7:06am on Thursday, the 27 October a rather overcast Thursday morning. For now, perhaps we’ll see the sun come out a little bit later. As always, we’re kickstarting the morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.

BFM

It was a bit of a mixed day for what generally red though the Dow Jones on Wall Street, the Dow Jones ended marginally higher, that’s 0.01% barely changed. S&P 500 was down 0.7%. But the action was on the Nasdaq that closed 2% lower because of disappointing results from Meta and Alphabet. We’ve just got to wait for the Apple and Amazon results that will be out tonight US time. So we’ll be discussing that tomorrow. Early in the day, Asian markets were generally green. The Nikkei was up 0.7%, the Hang Seng was up 1%. The Shanghai Composite and Singapore’s STI, they were both 0.8% higher. And back home the FBM KLCI closed 0.7% up.

BFM

For some thoughts on what’s moving international markets, we have on the line with us Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony, thanks for joining us today. Now, notwithstanding overnight results, global equities led by US stocks have extended gains over the last week, avoid by the expectations that peak inflation has been reached. What do you think? Are they being too sanguine about inflationary pressures?

TN

I don’t necessarily think they’re being too sanguine. There are cases to be made that housing prices and wage growth have turned the corner. Goods price inflation has likely peaked, but there doesn’t necessarily mean that we’ll see prices decline. Regardless of what’s happening in the inflation environment. The Fed is going to raise rates in November, likely by 75 basis points and again in December. So the Fed typically lags inflation on both sides on the way up and on the way down and so they’re likely going to over tighten. Markets have largely factored in a 75 and 50 basis point hike over the next two months. So are they sanguine? I don’t know. I think if we start to see inflation really take a downward turn, then it could be a very good thing for all of us.

BFM

But Tony, the 75 basis point expected hike by the Feds comes at a time when a lot of analysts are also expecting recession to hit the US sometime sometime next year. Would there be some reassessment as we go along?

TN

Well, we’ve already had kind of negative economic growth for half a year, so we do need to see jobs come down. And with the tech earnings coming out, as you guys mentioned in the news segment, we expect tech companies to announce some pretty major layoffs before the end of the year.

BFM

Let’s get into that a little bit, Tony, in terms of tech results, I mean we did see Meta overnight, we’ve seen how Microsoft also came in below market expectations. What do you think this tells us about the direction of the tech sector moving forward, especially with this environment of rising interest rates and a looming global recession?

TN

Yeah, well, tech companies have overhired. They were hiring based on valuation, not necessarily based on revenue. And so now that their valuations have come down, they have excess staff and they need to clear the decks. And the productivity within the technology sector, although it sounds a little weird, the productivity is pretty low because they’ve had too many people. So as these companies come out and give pretty sad earnings reports, there’s going to be pushback from investors that they need to lay people off, and that will come out in the next couple of months. So we’ll see some of that. Now, if you compare that to, say, companies like Coca Cola and GM who beat the street, those companies have been able to pass on cost rises to their customers, so they’ve factored in cost rises to their price. Now, many of those companies saw volumes decline, but price rises more than made up for the volume decline. So they’ve beat expectations by raising price, in many cases by double digits.

BFM

Tony, we’re expecting Amazon and Apple results to come out tonight, and what we’ve seen from the previous results have sort of, well, dampened market sentiment, if you may, what are your expectations going forward?

TN

Yeah, I don’t think they’re going to be stellar results. I think Amazon had this, at least in the states, they had this kind of second prime day a couple of days ago to goose sales revenues for the quarter, which tells me that things are not stellar at Amazon, and so there are signs that things aren’t working out. The new iPhone is kind of a yarn for a lot of people, so it’s not necessarily pushing out. And so I think the expectations are for pretty mediocre results. So if they report in excess of expectations, then tomorrow will be a fantastic day in markets. But I don’t think that’s necessarily likely at this point.

BFM

All right, something we’re going to be keeping an eye on. Another thing to keep an eye on is the slew of indicators that are going to be coming out. We’ve got US GDP, durable goods, and initial jobless claims numbers. Which indicator are you paying the most attention to in terms of being a gauge of how well the economy is going?

TN

Yeah, one of the things that I always tell people to be careful of with some of these macroeconomic numbers is things like GDP. What’s being announced is what’s called a preliminary release. So they kind of have a sketch of what’s happening in the economy, but it’s not detailed. So when these GDP announcements come out and it’s the first release, it’s not really accurate. And those things can change by 50% or more in some cases. So GDP is not really something I look to. It’s kind of a headline, but it doesn’t really mean a whole lot.

TN

Durable goods is interesting because that tells me that people are investing in things, buying things that last a long time so that they can deliver new services or new products in, say, three to six months time. So that would tell me people are looking forward. So if durable goods is a bad number, then it tells me people are really just trying to take care of today and not investing in the future.

TN

Jobless claims. I don’t know. Sometimes it’s meaningful, sometimes it’s not. I think the sentiment around jobless claims is overhyped. The Fed is definitely watching jobless claims because they want to see wages and jobs come down. So with jobless claims, it’s one of those good news and bad news types of things. So we’re kind of hoping for a poor jobless claims so that the Fed can kind of tick off the box and say, mission accomplished.

BFM

Tony I just want to pick your brains on this. We’ve seen three straight days of market gains on Wall Street and this morning, or rather last night for you or today for you. We’ve just seen a reversal of that. Is this an indication that maybe fortunes might be changing going forward?

TN

I think it’s a good question, and I think it’s hope that the Fed is changing course. And I think regardless of what comes out, say, this month, and I think probably next month, I don’t think the Fed is going to change course. They were caught flat footed. They said that inflation was transitory, they messed up, they’re embarrassed, and they’re going to make people feel it. And people are going to lose jobs and homes and all sorts of things because regional Fed governors don’t want to be embarrassed again. So I think at least over the next two months, they’re probably not going to change course. They’re going to continue to tighten. I don’t think there’s been a dramatic change in everything. I think this is a little bit of hope, and I think it is some earnings that have been reported that are better than expected. But I think in general, people are being very cautious about trades they make.

BFM

Tony let’s end the conversation with a look at oil prices. They are taking a breather on news that US stock bells have risen. How will that translate in terms of energy prices as the Northern Hemisphere moves into winter?

TN

Yeah, the SPR, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve release, it’s put a lot of volume in the market in recent months. And of course, that’s lowered crude prices and it’s lowered the price of refined products. So after the election, and it’s no secret we expect the SPR releases to decline dramatically. And we’ve talked for a few months about how we expect crude prices to kind of spike towards the end of the year. And that would be spikes in crude prices and downstream products like, say, petrol. So we do expect that to happen in the North American market, kind of in Q4 and through Q1 out of the effects of that SPR release wear off.

BFM

And meanwhile, OPEC has also forecasted that China’s oil demand will decline by 60,000 barrels per day. Is that something that you see could cap further spikes in prices?

TN

It could. I mean, 60,000 barrels isn’t a lot, but it could. I think if China were simply to end COVID Zero, it would really drive consumption of crude. So OPEC must expect further dampening of the economy in China, and that’s no surprise. I mean, China is really having a hard time right now, and whether or not they can come back in ’23 is questionable, so it’s no surprise. But 60,000 barrels a day really isn’t a lot, and I don’t think it would affect prices dramatically.

BFM

Tony, thanks as always, for speaking with us this morning. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead.

BFM

Yeah, so we did see Meta shares plummet 17% on week fourth quarter forecast. And earning miss. It basically came up well short of Wall Street’s expectations. Earnings per shares earnings per share was $1.64 versus a  $1.89, which was what was expected. Revenue was at $27.7 billion. Daily active users did meet expectations at 1.98 billion users, and the monthly active users came in at 2.96 billion versus 2.94 billion.

BFM

I mean, Meta is contending with a broad slowdown in online ad spending, challenges from Apple’s iOS privacy update and increased competition from other players like TikTok. It’s getting more expensive to run the company as Meta’s costs and expenses rose 19% year over year to $22.1 billion. And that’s something that Tony alluded to earlier, the fact that they’re likely going to see more layoffs moving forward. Tech companies have just been on a hiring spree that they cannot afford at this point. And I bet the WhatsApp outage the other day didn’t help a Meta’s fortunes either, at least in terms of its reputation and image. It could see a lot of people try to migrate elsewhere from using WhatsApp as their main communication source to another platform that is more stable, perhaps. 

BFM

I must say we could wait until to see what happens towards the end of the year. Well, November actually, just next month when the midterm elections come, and we see if there’s any pick up in usage then.

BFM

That’s true. All right, it is 7:18 in the morning. We’re heading into some messages, and when we come back, we will be covering the top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned. BFM 89.9. You’ve been listening to.

BFM

A podcast from BFM 89 Nine, the business station. For more stories of the same kind, download the VFM app.

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UK Turns To QE To Calm Markets

This podcast was originally published at https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/uk-qe-outdated-government-bonds-calm-markets-british-pound

The Bank of England surprised markets by announcing that it would buy long dated government bonds in order to stabilise capital markets. Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence explains why and what does this mean for the Pound.

Transcript

BFM

Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run on Thursday the 29 September. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Wong Shou Ning. Now, in half an hour, we are going to discuss the political future of Crown Prince Mama bin Salman, or MBS of Saudi Arabia, now that he’s been named the Prime Minister of the country. But as always, let’s kick start the morning with a look at how global markets closed.

BFM

Yesterday, US markets had a very good date was at 1.9%. S&P 500 up 2%, while Nasdaq was up a whopping 2.1%. Meanwhile, in Asia, it was all red. Nikkei was down 1.5%, hong Singh was down a whopping 3.4%. Shanghai and Times Index both down 1.6%, while our very own FBM KLCI was down 0.6%.

BFM

So for some thoughts on what’s moving international markets, we have on the line with us Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Thanks for joining us. I want to start off with moves by the bank of England that said it would move to buy long dated government bonds in order to stabilize capital markets. Can you talk us through what the BoE is trying to do and whether this will ultimately be successful?

Tony

Yes. So here’s what happened. You had some pension funds who bought debt, debt instruments called Guilt, and they used those gilts as collateral to borrow more money to buy more debt instruments. And they use that as collateral to borrow more money to buy more instruments. So they were many times leveraged on these government debt instruments. And when the value of those gifts declined, they had to provide collateral against the loans they had taken out to buy that debt. So it’s a very circular kind of series of events that’s happened. So because these pension funds got in trouble, the UK, the bank of England wanted to prevent their insolvency, of course, because many of them are government pension funds. So since the bank of England has nearly endless currency, they can help the government come to a relatively orderly decline. So is it ideal? No, but there was some messaging out from the new Prime Minister in Whitehall that was very disturbing to government bond investors and that triggered the sell off and then that triggered a multibillion pound rescue from the bank of England.

BFM

Okay, I want to stay on the topic of the United Kingdom, but us about the currency. They must be the only G seven countries still doing quantitative easing in some way. Where do you think the pound is heading? Dendu?

Tony

Well, because of the energy environment, they’re going to be spending more money on subsidies to help the British people through the winter and more pound? Denominated spending actually makes the pound stronger, but you have aggressive quantitative easing and you have a relatively stronger US dollar. It’s possible that we see the pound decline, say, 35% more, unless something dramatic happens, like another event like today or another event by the government that really erodes credibility, I don’t see a lot more decline happening, but it’s a weird year. It’s a weird few years that we’re having right now. Right. So I think on some level it’s really hard to tell. And the problem with losing credibility is that you lose credibility. And if they erode even more credibility, it could be worse than anybody thinks. So I think that’s a small chance. I think we’re probably in a range at this point.

BFM

And if we take a look over at the US, we have seen federal officials reiterate the very hawkish stance that they have. But San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank President Mary Daly said that the bank is resolute by bringing down high inflation, but wants to do so as gently as possible so as not to drive the economy into a downturn. Do you think it’s possible at this point to engineer a soft landing, or is a recession inevitable?

Tony

I think it’s possible to engineer a softish landing. I think the problem with the Feds facing as they were very slow to respond to inflation, and so now they’re trying to respond as quickly as they can, and they’re responding in a very kind of brutal kind of way. Mary Daily coming out with these as gently as possible comments are good. And that’s new. Neil Cashari yesterday said he’s another Fed governor. He said there is the risk of overdoing it on the front end, meaning that the Fed could raise rates too quickly. So some of these governors are getting out with messaging, trying to soften the Fed’s hard message over the last couple of months. So the wording from the Feds, ongoing wording generally from especially JPOW, has said that they’re going to be ongoing aggressive hikes, and that’s scaring people. So, like, the Fed needs to be less aggressively hawkish in their language. So that doesn’t mean they turn dovish. That doesn’t necessarily mean they start doing QE. They just need to be less aggressively hawkish. And that’s just toning down the language. I think it’s a little bit too little too late in as much as markets have fallen by, say, 23%, I think, since the highs.

Tony

But I think if they start inserting some less aggressively hawkish language, we can have a smoother glide path to balance, meaning higher interest rates, more moderate equity markets at a slower pace.

BFM

Okay, Tony, can you help us understand what happened today in markets? Because I’m a little bit confused in the sense that US ten year treasury yields fell the most since March 2020. On a day like this, equities shouldn’t go up, but it did. Why?

Tony

Well, I think equity investors are seeing what the bank of England did, and I think on some level they see equity markets versus central banks as a bit of a game of chicken. And the bank of England blinked. And I think equity investors are hoping that the Fed will slow down or blink. This is not a pivot. Meaning when people talk about the Fed and say a pivot, they mean pivoting to quantitative easing and pivoting to dovish language. I don’t see that at all, but I think equity investors are seeing a chance of the Fed becoming less aggressively hawkish, as I was saying. So I think that’s really what happened is just a quick breath think, oh gosh, maybe they’re going to slow down a little bit, which would be positive for equity markets.

BFM

And if you take a look at the Nordstream gas pipeline disruption, that does seem to have changed the energy calculus in Western Europe. How do you think it’s going to affect the dynamics of energy prices over there, especially with winter looming?

Tony

Yeah, I think it will affect, but there isn’t a lot of gas coming by Nordstream. There are other pipelines bringing gas to Europe, so it’s really, at the moment, more perception than reality. So Europe has a fair bit of gas and storage for winter. It’s 87% of their goal, so they’re in pretty good shape. They’re not in great shape, but they’re in pretty good shape. They can make it all the way through winter with what they have in storage, but they aren’t reliant on Nordstrom to fill their reserves further. So I think the kind of the gut punch on this is that it’s a pretty damaging leak and so it would be really hard to get it back online. If Russia say something happened with a resolution of UK, sorry, Ukraine, Russia, and there was optimism that Russia could turn on the taps again, that would be really hard to achieve. So it’ll be an expensive winter for energy in Europe. But Nordstream doesn’t really impact it all that much. It’s more, say, the long term hopes and expectations for Nordstream.

BFM

Tony, thanks very much for speaking with us. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead. Really assessing what’s happening over in the UK with the actions by the bank of England overnight. That has helped somewhat to calm the plunge in the pound sterling that we’ve seen over the past few days. I think this pound has rallied, but how long this equilibrium will last, I think, is anyone’s guess.

BFM

Well, this morning pound against ringgate is 5.0260 at the lowest in the last two days, if I’m not wrong, 4.8. Right. So it has truly, truly recovered. But volatile markets ahead, I think still question marks about whether this trust economic policy makes any sense. Confusion over the tax cuts, how they’re going to pay for it, reverberating around global markets because we’ve seen actually global bond yields peak. Question about whether there will be more activities by central banks to intervene, to prop up their currencies or to restore come to their own respective markets, because we saw that in Japan. And apparently even South Korea says it plans to conduct an emergency born buyback program.

BFM

Indeed, we do see also that the yuan is coming under pressure, and China central bank has issued a strongly worded statement to warn against speculation after the currency dropped to its lowest versus the dollar since 2008.

BFM

I love the language. The language is released yesterday. Do not bet on one way appreciation or depreciation of the yarn, as losses will definitely be incurred in the long term. Can’t spell it out more clearly than that, right? Indeed.

BFM

716 in the morning. We’re going to head into some messages. And when we come back, what does long or need more? Another quarry or preservation of its forests? Stay tuned. BFM 89.9 you have been listening to.

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If Recession Is Coming, Does Jay Powell Still Raise Rates?

US bond prices are pointing to an oncoming recession, raising the question of whether the Fed stays the course on its path to rate normalcy. Tony Nash, CEO, Complete Intelligence, discusses. 

This podcast first appeared and originally published at https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/if-recession-is-coming-does-jay-powell-still-raise-rates on March 31, 2022.

Show Notes

SM: BFM 89 Nine. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run. It’s 7:05 A.M. On Thursday, the 31 March, looking rather cloudy outside our Studios this morning. If you’re heading on your way to work, make sure to drive safe. First, let’s recap how global markets closed yesterday.

KHC: US markets down was down. .2% S&P 500 down .6% Nasdaq down 1.2%. Asian markets, Nikkei down zero 8%. Hong Kong’s up 1.4%. Shanghai Composite up 2%. STI up 3%. Fbm KLCI close flat.

SM: So fairly red on the board today. And for some thoughts on where international markets are headed, we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Always good to have you. Now markets are speculating that the brief inversion of the two over ten year US Treasury yields this week is a sign of an oncoming recession. So do you agree with this? And if not, what might explain these brief periods of inverting or inversion?

TN: It could be a sign. Shazana, I think we have to see a more consistent and meaningful inversion to say that we’re definitely headed into a recession. So what this means is that what a yield curve inversion means is that people have to pay more for shorter duration money. So right now, if you look at, say, the five year treasury, the yield is 2.4% and the ten year is around two point 35%. So it’s cheaper to borrow longer term money, which is really weird. It could have a lot of reasons. Maybe companies need money more. They’re short on cash and they’re more willing to pay for it. So that would be a sign of a recession. So if we see a more consistent yield driven version, we see the two and the five years continue to be higher rates, then we need to be more concerned. For now, there’s a lot of speculation, but we just don’t necessarily see the certainty of it yet.

TCL: Tony, markets are wondering whether the Fed is going to push ahead with this rate policy on tightening because this volatility both in share markets and bond markets is a bit muddling for the analysts and the fund managers to make sense of. What’s your point of view?

TN: Yeah, I think at least for the last few months the Fed has been fairly consistent. But of course, we’ve had exogenous type of events, the war between Russia and Ukraine being the biggest, and that has had an impact on raw materials costs. So food in the case of Ukraine with wheat and sunflower oil and all this other stuff and energy with Russia. So it doesn’t matter what a central bank does necessarily. They can’t push down the price of oil through monetary policy. What they can do is demand destruction. And this is why we think that they’re going to lead with some fairly sizable 50 basis point rises, say in May for sure, and possibly in June. I don’t know if you saw that today. JPmorgan was out with a note saying that there will be 50 basis point rises in both May and June, which would be a pretty sharp rise in interest rates. The good news is we see a sharp rise initially, but then they’ll only do that for a short period of time to cut off demand pretty quickly and hopefully cut down on some of the demand for petrol and oil and some of these other materials.

TCL: Okay. So your sense is that the Fed and JPowell will stay the cost and increase rates, but what’s happening in Japan is quite the opposite. They’re actually showing quite discernible decoupling because they’re staying with zero interest rates. I think the ten year yield on the JGBs is about zero point 25%. What does that spell? Because the Japanese yen is now down at a six minute seven year low. Obviously, there’s a big sense of what’s going on here. What’s your point of view?

TN: J I think yesterday announced that they would have unlimited purchases of Japanese government bonds. So what they’re doing through that is it’s an open door for them to insert currency. It’s kind of a backdoor to growing their money supply, which leads to evaluation of the yen. And so Japan is in a place right now where they want to grow their export sector. They do that through yen evaluation. The competition between, say, Japan, China, Korea is there. China’s exports keep growing despite a strong Chinese Yuan Japan. There are other central banks. It’s partly that reason, meaning the ECB tightening and the Fed tightening, but it’s also competitiveness of Japan of their exports. So there are a number of reasons at play there.

KHC: So you were saying that earlier that maybe we will see 50 basis points increase in May or June. How do you think the share prices of US banks and financial institutions typically would do in this kind of environment, and would they be ultimate winners?

TN: They could be, I guess the only dilemma there would be the impact on mortgage. So if the Fed raises rates really quickly and it has an impact on mortgage demand and mortgage defaults, then that could be a real problem for banks. But short of that, I think they’re probably in a decent place to do fairly well. Of course, that’s company specific and all that sort of thing. But I think financial services in general should do fairly well on a relative basis.

TCL: Yeah. Tony, if it goes ahead as follows. Right. And Japan does not increase rates like the US is, it just extends its debt to GDP ratio. I think Japan is now 255% to GDP. I think the US is well above 100%. That’s quite disconcerting. What happens? How does it all end? Because it’s quite clear that Japan cannot raise rates because it just cannot fall into recession.

TN: Well, the problem with Japan raising rates is their population. And you all know this story, but they can’t necessarily raise productivity without automation. So they have to automate to be able to raise their productivity, to be able to raise their rate of growth. So that’s the foundational problem Japan have now with the BOJ buying with their JGB purchases, they’re actually buying the debt that the Japanese Treasury creates. Okay. So it’s this circular environment where the Japanese Treasury is creating debt to fund their government, and the BOJ is buying that debt basically out of thin air. They’re retiring. Okay. So Japan is in a really strange situation where it’s creating debt and then it’s buying it and retiring it. And this is a little bit of modern monetary theory, which is a long, long discussion. But Japan is in a very strange place right now.

SM: Tony, thanks very much for speaking to us this morning. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that are moving markets at the moment. And in the conversation there with a look at Japan and just the curious situation that it finds itself in amid all these economic and geopolitical pressures happening in the world.

TCL: Yeah, it’s really weird, right? The Japanese are so much in debt and they can’t get out of it. They’re creating these debts and they’re buying back this debt. It’s quite insane. But America does the same thing with their bond buying program until this year. Right. And that they haven’t even significantly cut that program. It’s really weird because what happens then for the US dollar? What happens to the Japanese yen down the line when your paper currency is near as meaningless? Right. It’s not banked by anything. It’s just being printed every day Willy nilly. It’s really weird.

SM: So all eyes are, of course, on the Fed, I guess, the most powerful central bank in the world, and how much it’s going to raise rates when it’s actually going to start or stop its QE in since quantitative easing, opposite of that. Somebody tell me what it means. Qt. There we go. And when they start reducing, that’s something that everyone’s watching very closely. Let’s take a look at some of the international headlines that have caught our eye. We see something coming out of Shanghai. Volkswagen said yesterday that it would partly shut down production at its factory in Shanghai because the lack of key components indicating further how a resurgence of the Omikan variant has disrupted the Chinese economy and global supply chains. The Shanghai factory operated in a joint venture with SAIC of China, and it’s one of Volkswagen’s largest facilities. It shut down for two days in mid March, but reopened now. It looks like it’s going to have to shut down again.

KHC: Yes. And the company also gave indication they didn’t give actually any indication on when normal production will resume. But China is booked Vegas largest market in the essential source of sales and profit. So the country is in the midst of the worst outbreak since 2020. And so that should prompt the government to impose lockdowns and restrictions. And even car maker like Tesla is also having a large factory in Shanghai also have to suspend production because of this strict covet policies. And so voice mechanics, they’re actually having a lot of shortages and slowdowns in other markets as well.

SM: So it’s really the twin it’s the twin issues, right? It’s the pandemic on one hand and then it’s also the geopolitical events in Ukraine that’s really affecting it’s, leading to a shortage of auto parts. So all this comes together and it’s not great for car makers in Shanghai at the moment. Turning our attention to another headline, if we look over at Russia, Russia is going to lift the short selling ban on local equities later today. And this is actually removing one of the measures that helped limit the declines in the stock market. After a long, record long shutdown, the bank of Russia also said equities trading hours will be expanded from a shortened four hour session to the regular schedule of 950 to 650 P. M. Moscow time. So I guess they’re trying to get back to normal but how we see that impact the stock market is still, I think, an open question. Yeah.

KHC: And since the stock market has since that stock actually gained 1.7% and the daily move also has been limited. Prior to the resumption of trading, the Russian government actually took measures including preventing foreigners from exiting local equities and banning short selling and to avoid the repeat of 33% slump scene in the first day of the Ukraine invasion last month.

TCL: Yeah, this whole Russia Ukraine invasion is set off a domino effect of domino effect quite catastrophic. Or repercussions manufacturing in capital markets in currencies. How does it all end?

SM: We don’t know. We don’t know the end to that story. And how long 717 in the morning. Stay tuned to BFM 89.9%.

Categories
Week Ahead

The Week Ahead – 21 Mar 2022

This week, we saw a Fed rate rise, crude came back from the stratosphere, and Chinese equities came to life.

As we said last week:

– Sam said “watch the 5 and 7 year” bonds, where we saw serious action.

– Sam also said “grip it and rip it” with equity markets.

– Tracy said that dramatic spikes in crude markets were priced out of the market for now

– Albert called for a volatile week thru the Fed meeting, although we didn’t see the lows he’d expected.

Sam walked us through the Fed decision and what’s happening in the bond markets. He also explained a bit more about his “grip it and rip it” comment and where the leaves us.

LME is talking about banning Russian copper on the exchange. What does that mean for global copper markets, as explained by Tracy? We’re also coming off the nickel scandal at the LME. Are there bigger problems with at the LME – mixing politics with markets?

We saw China equity markets perk up this week. KWEB, the China tech ETF, is up over 40% since Monday. What happened, what is Albert watching and what’s coming for Chinese equity markets?

Listen on Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1yFipmQCs7XNHEXwj20bZf?si=5310245ccd1545d1

This is the 11th episode of The Week Ahead in collaboration of Complete Intelligence with Intelligence Quarterly, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.

Follow The Week Ahead experts on Twitter:

Tony: https://twitter.com/TonyNashNerd
Sam: https://twitter.com/SamuelRines
Albert: https://twitter.com/amlivemon
Tracy: https://twitter.com/chigrl

Transcript

TN: Hi, and welcome to The Week Ahead. I’m Tony Nash. And I’m joined by Albert Marko, Sam Rines, and Tracy Shuchart. Before we get started, I’d like to ask you to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel.

So this week it’s been a really interesting week. We saw Fed rate rise. We saw commodities, especially crude, come back from the stratosphere and we saw Chinese equities come back to life. So it’s been kind of a really weird week.

Last Friday, Sam said to watch the five- and seven-year bonds where we saw some serious action. He also said rip it and grip it with reference to equity markets. So let’s dig into that a little bit today.

Tracy said the dramatic spikes in crude markets were probably priced out in the week before, which we saw bear out this week. And Albert called for an active week before the Fed. We didn’t see the low he expected, but I think very much in line with the volatility he expected this week.

So, Sam, to get started, can you walk us through the Fed’s decision and what’s happening in bond markets?

SR: Yeah. So I think the Fed’s decision is pretty simple to understand on a number of levels. It’s inflation, inflation, inflation and everything else is secondary. When asked multiple times what would knock them off of the call it the inflation war, they made it very clear there was very little that would knock them off that path. So you had a lot of action on seven-year, five-year and a little bit on 10? Not as much as I would have expected, really. But the basic reaction was the Feds going the Fed’s going very hard, very fast, probably would have done 50 if it weren’t for Ukraine and may do 50 at a coming meeting or two if the war in Ukraine doesn’t begin to really spiral into an employment issue in the US. It does not matter about a growth issue, matters about employment issue. So I think that’s really critical.

The two-year looks really well priced to me in light of that situation, quantitative tightening, whatever. That will happen in May. We know that.

TN: We’re convinced it’s happening in May.

SR: We’re convinced it’s happening in May. Yeah. The rhetoric from the Fed is pretty clear that they’re going to go early and they’re going to go fast on quantitative tightening. None of that is great for the longer end of the curve, starting at five s and ending at 30s.

If you want to kind of think about it in terms of ideal perspective, in terms of pricing, it’s probably pretty good. 5s, 7s, 10s, 30s have all priced a pretty interesting growth to inflation narrative that if you begin to have the growth narrative breakdown, if you begin to have the long term inflation embedded narrative breakdown, because the very fast, very good Fed, that’s going to change, and that’s going to push those yields down, prices up pretty dramatically, pretty quickly.

TN: Fantastic. So when you talk about QT in May, I think I bounced back and forth over the past, say month or two months where people are talking about QT, then they’re talking about the possibility of QE, then we’re talking about QT.

So the QT aspect of it, if that happens, which when you say I fully expect it to happen, the main point there is to take money out of circulation, is that right? What is the main point of QT?

SR: What is the main point of QT? Main point of QT is signaling.

TN: Okay.

SR: In my opinion. QE is a pretty big signal to go ahead and buy everything. QT is a pretty good signal that the Fed is serious, right. It’s a seriousness issue. It’s not as dramatic, I think, as it might be interpreted by the financial media in terms of an actual translation to financial conditions or to equity markets, et cetera.

It does tend to knock down multiples, and it probably adds another 25 to 50 basis points worth of tightening this year. But I wouldn’t say it’s a shredding of cash. It’s a shredding of reserves. So reserves never made it in to the market in terms of real usable high power cash. That’s a big difference.

TN: Okay. So when we look at the environment right now versus what you’re expecting for QT in May, are we in kind of an interim opportunistic equity market right now? Are people just kind of trading until the inevitable comes? What’s happening, especially in US equity markets?

SR: What’s happening in US equity markets? That’s a tougher question to answer than you might think. A lot of short covering. That’s the first thing. Second thing is most of the risk seem to be priced as we exited last week. Right.

If you’re going to price the world for World War Three or some sort of big tail risk, that was the time to do it. And you simply didn’t have any of that come to fruition. You had a hawkish Fed, but you didn’t have a Fed that seemed to want to break something really quickly. And it’s pretty obvious that they’re willing to break something at this point, but they didn’t want to break it with a 50 basis point hike or call it three or 3 or 50 basis point hikes. That is one of the reasons why equity markets get a little bit of relief here.

The other side is that the ten year yield dropped. The ten-year yield dropping took some pressure off the Nasdaq for rate increases or interest rate increases that side of things. So Nasdaq outperformed S&P, that’s a pretty important signal. There was some risk on this week.

TN: Great. Okay, Albert, what’s your rate on US equity markets in light of what Sam is talking about with Fed action?

AM: Sam’s right. They want to break something, but they don’t want to be seen as breaking something. I mean, I was dead wrong on the sub 4,000. I completely forgot that Opex was this week. They were not going to pay out $4 trillion and put up just the people. It was just that they probably spent 100 to 150 billion this week to pump this market up and keep it stable up in the stratosphere up here.

I guarantee they spent about at least $100 billion doing that this week. And they just annihilated people. They kept equities up. They are signaling that they’re going to hit inflation hard and fast, just like Sam said. They have to because things are just getting silly at this point.

TN: Okay. And Tracy, in light of what Sam is talking about with QT and more hikes later in the year, do you expect that to have a material impact on commodities over the short to medium term, or do you think they’re still on this strong trajectory that you’ve expected?

TS: Yeah. I think that unfortunately, the Fed cannot subside this with rate hikes because we have, again, real supply demand issues. And so I think the commodities markets, the trajectory is going to continue higher. It doesn’t matter, especially when we’re looking at now we have this Ukraine Russia war, and now we also have 50 million people locked down in China again. And they just closed one of their major ports and manufacturing hubs this week. So supply chains that were sort of beginning to mend, right, after 2020 just got thrown into an entire tail spin once again.

TN: I have a friend in the manufacturing sector who because of the Shenzhen Port close and city close, he got several force majeure letters this week. So that stuff is cascading through industry. We’re not necessarily seeing it in markets yet, but it’s really cascading through industry really quickly. And I think we’re going to start to see that appear in financial statements of companies in the coming months.

AM: That’s important, Tony, because my contention has always been that they’re allowing inflation to run wild because it reduces the amount of rate hikes they actually have to do come May, they might be done with their last rate hikes at that point and start QT just simply on the basis that the supply chains and the economy is struggling.

TN: Right. One thing I want to go back to, Tracy, when you say bullish market and this is my understanding of your statements, but you’re bullish on commodities, you’re not talking about crude going to $140 again next week. This is a medium term play. Is that fair to say?

TS: It’s a medium to longer term play, which I’ve kind of always stated, granted, we had the Russian Ukraine factor come in that push prices to 130 WTI, which was a lot faster than I anticipated. I really liked the fact that we pulled back from that, got some of that geopolitical risk air out of the market, but we’re still on the same trajectory of $150 a barrel over the course of the next year or two.

TN: Right. Okay. Now, while we’re on Russia Ukraine, the LME came out with some news about copper this week and we’re showing that on the screen right now talking about the LME potentially banning Russian copper on the exchange. Can you talk us through that? And what does that mean for global copper markets?

TS: All right, so this is, the LME Commission basically suggested that they ban Russian oil. This has to be presented to the internet. Copper. You said Russian oil.

TN: You meant copper, right?

TS: Copper, yes. Sorry. This has to be presented to the international community for this to actually go through. The problem here is Russia is the 7th largest producer of copper. They account for about 4% of global production. It’s a role on the LME exchange is more significant because they are the third largest exporter of refined copper metal and this is deliverable to the exchange. So this really would send LME markets into chaos. Literally.

TN: Okay, so let’s kind of somehow link that to the LME nickel issues that we saw last week. Okay? Could this, as an exchange, could actions like this impact the credibility of the LME or what does this mean kind of political actions and by “political actions”, I mean there was intervention on behalf of a Chinese entity for the nickel market last week.

There’s potential intervention as a result of geopolitical issues with Russia in the coming weeks. So will we see exchanges get more political and will that impact impact their credibility as an exchange?

TS: Well, that’s the problem, yes. And I do think that it will impact their credibility. The nickel market is essentially broken at the LME rights now, right. They reopened again on Tuesday. They set daily limits at 5%, limit down. They were limited down right away. They raised it to 8% on Thursday, limit down right away, 12% on Friday, limit down right away.

And basically, that’s not because of the fundamentals of the market. That’s because people are running for the hill. They just want out of that contract. Right. And so that is definitely going to be a problem for the LME market going forward.

TN: Are there dangers and we don’t necessarily need to name other markets, but are there dangers of other we’ll say developed market exchanges to kind of make these types? Could we see CBOT or CME or some of these guys start to play these games, too?

TS: I think that’s a difficult question to answer. I do not think that you will see CME do that unless you have some other foreign markets do that first.

TN: Unless a big Chinese state owned entity lose a lot of money.

TS: If we see SHFE do something like that, then I think the United States will. But I do not think you’ll see the CME market actually.

TN: Okay. Yeah. I mean, I’m not sure that some people understand that these exchanges are actually businesses and they have to make business decisions. Right. And some of these business decisions, they’re not completely neutral market participants. Right. In some cases, they get involved in these trades.

TS: They’re there to make money. Right.

TN: They are there to make money. But when politics inserts itself into markets, these exchanges that people think are kind of arms length to the trades, it starts some people wondering about the price. Are they actually getting the right price? Is there really a true market there?

TS: Well, exactly. And that’s exactly what we’re seeing at the LME right now. At the command, so far, we have not seen that at CME yet. But that is to be determined.

TN: Right. Albert, Sam, what do you guys have to say on this?

AM: From my perspective, I can’t really add much to what Tracy said. She’s right on the ball. When it comes to systemic issues, politics gets in the way and protects it. That’s just the way it works. And unfortunately, just seeing what you’re seeing today, which is undermining, it undermines the trust in the entire market overall.

TN: Yeah. It just seems like a problem that’s really hard to get over. Right. Like how long will it be broken and when it’s back, will it snap back? I just don’t know. Sam, do you have any thoughts on this?

SR: My only thought is very similar to Albert’s, in terms of I don’t think anybody’s going to actually trust the LME anytime soon. If you’re going to make a significant trade in a metal, I highly doubt you’re going to want to do it through the LME without having some sort of backup to that position.

TN: Okay, great. Let’s move on to Chinese equities. Albert, we saw China equity markets forgot this week, KWEB, for example, which is a China tech ETF, is up over 40% since Monday. So what happened and what are you watching?

AM: Again, the systemic issues that China is facing in the market, I mean, Hong Kong was about 5% away from just absolutely imploding. They had a new problem where it wasn’t just the foreign money that was leaving the system, but actually the mainland mainland Chinese investors were taking money out, which was something new. And it was to the point where the peg might have even broken. So they had to shore it up by liquidity injections. And the Xi had come out and made those comments citing Hong Kong twice. But I was on Twitter and I was saying, this just can’t happen.

China is completely about to fail market wise. So let’s start picking things, pick the best ETF, pick the best companies out of China. And I mentioned KWEB with you guys, GDS, Chindata, you can throw a dart and pick your Chinese name last week and it went up 40% to 80% at some point.

Same thing. Now I’m kind of trimming my position back, but Chinese housing is at that point right now, where the housing sector accounts for 75% of China’s wealth. They can’t just simply let it deteriorate into nothing where the banks are taking it over. That can’t happen. I mean, Xi would be out in his ass. Sorry about the commentary, but Xi would be out within months if that happens. So I’m going to pick top three Chinese housing names and go for it.

TN: It’s a brave call. It’s a really brave call.

AM: All right.

TN: Do you think there’s room to run with some of these Chinese tech companies or even the broader China market, or do you think the opportunity is really limited to real estate?

AM: Well, no, they can run. The problem that we have now is the Biden administration is starting to target China, assisting Russia and whatnot. So then now you have the geopolitical risks come into the equation and you see these things surge 40% one day, you can easily see a 20% retracement the next day or even more. So that’s why I’m just trimming you take your 60% and be happy with it.

TN: Right. So we talked about Chinese fiscal stimulus, Chinese monetary stimulus. We talked about devaluation. Do the events of the last week move up the time clock for the economic planners in China to get this stuff out the door?

AM: Absolutely. I think they have to even in conjunction with the US, because the US has no fiscal coming so the Chinese have to step up to simulate the economy. Otherwise the entire globe is going into a depression. It’s as simple as that.

TN: Yeah. It’s really. I remember over the past ten years, all the talk about coordinated economic stimulus and all this other stuff since 2008, 2009. And right now we’ve got the Fed pulling back and we’ve got China aggressively moving forward. It’s just a little bit strange. Sam, I guess from a macro perspective, can that work?

SR: It can work depending on how much stimulus is actually put into the system and how it is put into the system. The how is very important in terms of how impactful it will be. Not just domestically for China. But also how impactful it will be beyond their borders.

And what you’d be really concerned about from a macro perspective is how far beyond the borders does that stimulus actually get? That’s where I get interested in it, because if it does begin to move beyond the borders, it’s very positive for Europe. That’s very positive for some US companies. But you have to have a stimulus that isn’t just a transfer to businesses.

You have to have it actually hit the Chinese consumer and hit the Chinese consumer quickly.

TN: Okay. So we’re not just talking about a couple of RRR cuts, which is what they do all the time. It’s kind of the go to. This is the reserve requirement, right?

SR: Yeah. I don’t care if they do RRR cut.

TN: I don’t think many people do, although I think they kind of have to phone that in to show that they’re doing something. I would think it’s more aggressive on the fiscal side, on the TSF, the total social finance side, where they just need to churn the cash out to SMEs, SOEs, big multinational companies, that sort of thing to almost get them to the point where they’re exporting deflation again, of manufactured goods. Does that make sense as an approach, Sam?

SR: I mean, it makes a lot of sense as an approach, but at the same time, you’re locking down due to your COVID zero process or policy. So that process would be really interesting and intriguing. But it’s a question of whether or not it would be effective given the health policy on the other side. So, yes, it would be great, but it would be probably great in three to six months.

TN: Okay, so guys, this is a great point. The COVID zero policy, it feels like much of the rest of the world has come out of this. Right. And China has gone back into lockdowns. Do you think there’s a point at which other markets have an uncomfortable call with China and go, guys, you got to open up because you’re killing the rest of us.

SR: I think they had it. I think they had it. If you look at the way they’re handling the current lockdown, they’re busting people to factories.

There’s a closed loop factory policy. While you have a COVID zero policy and “these places are locked down,” they are busing people to the factories. So I think there’s been a little bit of a let’s move on here.

TN: Okay.

AM: And also want to point out is these lockdowns came suspiciously close to the talks with the US, both with Biden and our glorious blink or Sullivan, the genius Sullivan that we have. But I think it might have been a little bit of a negotiation tactics like if you decide to play hardball with us over Russia, we can just shut down and ding our economy. So I think there was a little bit of that also sprinkle in there, right. A little bit of real politics.

TN: Yeah. Okay, guys. So as we come out of this weird week, what do you expect for the week ahead? Tracy, what are you looking at for the week ahead?

TS: So I think in the commodity markets, we’re still at that point where we’re kind of coming down after that initial knee jerk reaction to Russia, Ukraine. So I expect a little bit of consolidation across markets. Depending. It’s kind of what we’re seeing. So I think the market still be volatile, but like less volatile. I think we’re kind of like at that ripple point where the ripples really big and then we kind of get smaller and smaller.

TN: I think you’re Right. I think the consolidation makes sense. Albert, what are you looking For? It seems to me on the geopolitical side, we’re almost going through almost a geopolitical consolidation a little bit. We’ve had so much drama over the past few weeks, but I almost feel like it’s coming down a bit.

AM: It has been coming down and that’s one of the reasons they’re able to sit there and pump the market so high. I think it was overbought, to be honest with you. I think this market even considering going back to 4500, you’re just going to have every fund out there shorting the heck out of it. So I would see them try to test 4470, 4480, 4490, maybe 4500, but after that, it’s probably downside from there.

TN: Okay. Great. Sam, what are you looking at?

SR: I’m looking at the five-year I think it’s a pretty interesting place to be and I think it’s going to be highly volatile. But that’s the one to watch with inflation and growth expectations beginning to be a little wobbly.

TN: Great. Guys, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Have a great week ahead.

AM, SR, TS: Thanks.

Categories
Podcasts

Tech Crumbles as Spigots Close

TECH CRUMBLES AS SPIGOTS CLOSE

Tech stocks on Nasdaq and NYSE are being pummelled as momentum behind the Fed’s unwinding policy continues. Tony Nash, CEO, Complete Intelligence, discusses.

This podcast first appeared and originally published at https://www.bfm.my/podcast/morning-run/market-watch/tech-crumbles-as-spigots-close on January 20, 2022.

Show Notes

KHC: BFM 89.9 20th of January 2022, 7:06 in the morning with me Khoo Hsu Chuang with Philip See. Now let’s look at how global markets closed yesterday.

PS: Oh, it was terrible. I think that was a lot of downward pressure in the US. Down S&P500 were down 1%, Nasdaq was down one 2%. Asian markets were relatively mixed. The Nikkei was down two 8%. Hung Seng up marginally zero 6%, Shanghai Composite down zero 3%, STI up zero 1%, and back home, FBM KLCI down zero 8%.

KHC: And to discuss what’s happening in global markets, we now welcome Tony Nash, the chief executive of Complete Intelligence. Tony, Nasdaq down 8.3% year to date. It’s been a bit of a bloodbath. How concerned should equity investors be at this point in time, especially those that are heavily into tech companies?

TN: Yeah, if they’re heavily invested in tech companies, they should be very concerned when interest rates rise. It’s a signal that there should be rotation out of technology. And that’s clearly what’s going on. So if we look at Apple, for example, Apple was down over 2% today. They’ve had a really hard time recovering the kind of $180 share peak they hit in early December. So people have known for a month and a half now. Well, definitely over a month that there’s been a rotation out of tech. So we expect headwind for several months until we get a clear indication of the path that the Fed’s going to undertake and how steeply they’re going to raise rates and start to tighten their balance sheet.

PS: Do you think the markets are priced in all the hikes planned?

TN: I think markets are trying to figure out what rates they’re going to do. I mean, there’s gossip right now that they’re going to raise 50 basis points in March, which would be probably an overshoot. But that’s part of the reason you’re seeing such volatility in equities right now is people aren’t really sure. And it’s a debate. It’s an ongoing debate. So where do you put your money? Well, you look at commodities, you look at commodity companies, energy companies, more traditional say manufacturing, not durable goods. People really stocked up on durable goods over the last two years, but other types of manufacturing companies could be interesting.

KHC: And Tony, we’ll talk about oil in just a second. But where do you think the funds are flowing? I know it’s a liquid activity, but where are the funds flowing away from tech into?

TN: Well, if you look at Walmart, there’s some very reliable, say, retail names that they’re going into. If you look at some of the resource plays, like Goldfields was up almost 13% today, volley was up 4.5%. So some of these commodity plays are really intercepting those games.

KHC: That’s right. And of course, talking about commodities, oil is on a tail 13% higher for Brent at $88. West Texas is up 15% to $87. What are the key drivers behind this upper trajectory beyond obviously this market driven flows, Tony?

TN: Yeah. I mean, part of it is the rotation in the market. There are some supply constraints that have been talked about and kind of been undertaken over the past week with some activities in Iraq between Iraq and Turkey, Libya. And there are some political risks, of course, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and other places. But our view is that oil is really kind of topped out for this run. There’s potentially a little more upside, but we don’t necessarily expect oil to take a run at, say $100 right now. We expect a little bit of a pullback certainly later in the year. We expect much higher crude prices.

PS: Do you think this will have any short term impact on the travel industry then and Airlines particularly?

TN: Yes, of course, it depends on what happens with jet fuel and the magnitude of the rise with jet fuel. But Gosh Airlines are contending with enough problems already as it is. So I think for them it’s just kind of another headwind to kind of throw in their pocket.

KHC: And Tony moving into China, and of course, they are pursuing a zero covet policy. They’ve locked down key shipping ports like Nimbo. Obviously, global supply chain problems have been exacerbated by that. So what measures can countries outside China do, for example, nausea, to alleviate these issues in the short, long term?

PS: I think that’s a technology issue.

TN: Sorry, guys. No, that’s my technology issue.

I apologize.

We’ve had these Covid issues for about two years now, and I think the real problem there is policy uncertainty, and some of these policies are becoming quite dangerous. They were very understandable early in the pandemic. But as we’ve started to recognize the issues, these things really need to be tightened down. So, for example, I think the best thing or we think the best thing countries outside of China could do is accept COVID as endemic and convince China that it’s now endemic. Why is that important? Well, we’ve really been in a bunker mentality, and we can’t really stay in that for another two, five or ten years. So if we look over the past day or so, the UK and Denmark have both announced normalization over the next week, and that’s ending things like work from home, ending vaccine requirements and passports, that sort of thing. The impact will be social, it will be economic, and of course, there will be political benefits. So the only reason these politicians are moving in that direction is because they’re getting such political pressure to unwind the requirements that they’re finally doing it because China is the center of global supply chains.

There has to be political pressure for China to normalize because supply chain constraints are affecting every country. And so this is something that really needs to happen. Now if China will not normalize, if they continue to close factories and ports, then companies just need to move their supply chains closer to their consumption countries. And I say just it’s a very complicated activity, but they’ve certainly had two years to start preparing to move those things. So they should accelerate those plans.

PS: And, you know, Tony keeping on the theme of unwinding and going back to normal, I guess many would say increasing interest rates would be kind of normalizing. But I wonder what their applications will be for countries like Brazil, Egypt, Argentina, South Africa and Turkey Who are potentially vulnerable to rising US rates. What’s your assessment on that?

TN: Yeah, it’s going to be hard for them. These are countries with weak and volatile currencies. Turkish Leira, Brazil riyal in Asia, I work particularly about the Tai Baht and the Rupia and Indonesia, I think they’re both vulnerable to rate hikes. I think part of what we’re witnessing is a transition from government led, say, planning. And for the last two years we’ve all looked to government for leadership on this stuff. And I think we’re starting to see a transition toward private sector leadership, at least in developed countries, at least in the west, those private sector companies will feel that currency volatility in their operations in countries like Indonesia, Thailand, Turkey and so on and so forth. So it’s not going to be painless for those governments, for the people in those countries or for the companies that operate there.

KHC: Tony, delightful to have you on again. Thank you so much for your time. That was Tony Nash, chief executive of Complete Intelligence. I don’t know if you’re an investor this year. I mean, what do you do? We’re just literally 20 days into the new year and it’s been tumultuous, right?

PS: It’s choppy waters. I mean, look at year to date, right? All down. I think S&P, Dow Jones, Nasdaq, Nasdaq down 8% year to date.

KHC: Yes, but then my dad a humongous last eleven years, right? So they’ve seen the market capital explode. A bit of correction isn’t bad for the soul sometimes, but you just wonder Where’s the end inside, right?

PS: Correct. I mean, the debate is I think earnings expect to be robust, but the issue is your evaluations.

Categories
Week Ahead

The Week Ahead 09 Jan 2022

The Week Ahead - 09 Jan 2022

This is the first episode of The Week Ahead in collaboration of Complete Intelligence with Intelligence Quarterly, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.

Follow The Week Ahead experts on Twitter:

Tony: https://twitter.com/TonyNashNerd

Tracy: https://twitter.com/chigrl

Nick: https://twitter.com/nglinsman/

Albert: https://twitter.com/amlivemon

Show Notes

TN: Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us for the week ahead. My name is Tony Nash. We’re joined today with Tracy Shuchart, Nick Glinsman and Albert Marco to talk about the markets for this past week and what’s going to happen this next week.

Guys, we saw a really dramatic market this week, a lot happening around the Fed announcements around inflation in Europe. We saw some real action around bonds. So can we talk about some of those things as well as what’s happening in energy markets? So, Tracy, could you actually get us started with what you’re seeing in energy markets?

TS: Well, obviously, we had big bounce this week in the energy markets, and a lot of that had to do with we had problems in Libya with some production offline 500,000 barrels. We also saw some big drop in Ecuador production and then Nigeria ongoing problems. And of course, we had Kazakstan, which these protests put potentially 1.6 million barrels at risk. So that was another geopolitical risk factor.

And then what we were seeing at home is because of weather, because of the cold snap we were seeing. We had Keystone down for about a day. And that brings Canadian crew to the United States. And then we’re also seeing production problems in the back end. So there were a lot of things going on in this market that propelled it higher.

TN: Okay. And what about the geopolitical problems with Europe and Russia? Is that still tightening? Do we see that still affecting gas prices in Europe?

TS: I think actually, we’ve actually seen a pullback ever since the US Calgary came with the initial 46 vessels. And then we’ve also seen countries such as the Netherlands come and say that they’re going to provide more gas, so the market is going to be volatile. It’s definitely going to remain volatile. But we have definitely seen it pull back off the highs.

TN: Good. Okay. Very good. Nick and Albert, can you talk to me a little bit about the Fed? What’s your view on the Fed remarks? And will they actually raise three times in 22?

NG: Well, actually, might be on the Fed remarks. Is it was nothing new. We knew absolutely everything. December the 15th, it was statement and then the press conference. It was very clear people just wanted to ignore it. So it’s come home to Roost. What was interesting that treasury market was already acting first day of trading and had a really good sell off. And it’s just carried on.

Now I’m wary of this Fed. Have they got the guts to actually take inflation on, or are they worried about the stock market? And there is obviously that correlation between the stock market and the economy. However, at this high level on the stock market, one wonders whether that correlation is a bit little bit looser because we have from a data point of view, whether it’s reality or not, it’s a booming economy.

And I actually had a conversation with a very well known economist on the street. It’s his own shop. And he said a couple of people he respects are talking about unemployment going sub 3% by their measure.

TN: But, Nick, that’s just a denominator function.

NG: I understand. We all know it’s not really less than 3%. But we all know that inflation is a 7.2% the forecast for next week. Okay. So I mean, this data has issues, and I’m very much aware of this issue. But the point is, if this carries on going that way and the seasonal adjustments accentuate the situation.

Plus, you’ve got to, you know, Albert mentioned this last year. There is a huge number of people retiring. So there’s a supply shortage of the labor side. It’s not just supply chains causing inflation, that labor has a supply shortage.

TN: We’ve been waiting for this for about a decade, right? For the baby to start. Really?

NG: They wanted a bit more inflation. They wanted a moving economy. They got it. Now the Fed has to show whether if the Fed goes all in on it to fight inflation, 170 is not the terminal rate on Fed funds. I think it’s going to be between two and a half or three and a half. Clearly, I’m just concerned about this Fed. In that respect, they’ve shown no willingness.

TN: Sure.

AM: I just want to add a real quick thing about that. Tony, I agree with what Nick is saying pretty much being clear on that. But from my perspective, the story is, are they going to go with inflation or are they going to have a recession? This is zero rates or rake hikes.

This market is realistically built on zero rates. Everybody knows this for them to hike. They would need some sort of stimulus program. And even then, you need lower job reports, which I think probably are coming. But even then, we have a physical flip coming in March that we have to address.

TN: Right. But, Albert, we would need a stimulus program with hikes just to stay neutral.

AM: Of course.

TN: Here’s what I don’t understand. Okay. And maybe you guys can fill me in. But the Fed has a massive balance sheet. Why even mention rates when there’s so much they can do with the balance sheet in terms of tapering being neutral and then tightening that on its own is a massive task. It seems to me that interest rates were kind of premature for that.

NG: I think they’re fearful of tantrums. My view on the tantrum side of things is either the Fed does deal with inflation. So you get then risk assets like equities will have a tantrum. It’s quite possible. And people wouldn’t expect that the bond market will have a tantrum, but it will be an inflation tantrum.

You’re right on QT quantitative tightening. I mean, they’ve got so much in the short end if they just let it roll off that’s $3 trillion in two years off the balance sheet. But then that would cause problems in the short end of the market.

TN: Yes. Previously, they didn’t start tightening for four years, right. QT didn’t start until four years after 2011 or whatever. So it was a long time, and I wouldn’t expect them to start selling off the balance sheet for an extended period of time. It’s just a matter of stopping the flow onto the balance sheet.

NG: This is the biggest hedge fund leveraged in the world.

TN: Yeah, it is. Okay. Speaking of funds, we’ve seen a little bit of rotation start in the market this week. So can you talk to us a little bit about that? And, Tracy, can you guys both talk a little bit about the rotation that’s underway in markets and how far will it go?

AM: It’s pretty clear that we’re rotating out of the US markets and out of tech going into China, possibly even Indonesia. The US market is nearing almost 60% of the entire global market. And that’s simply absurd. And just can’t go on.

Some are talking about disinflation, but the wage inflation continues to rise and the supply chain stress isn’t really getting any better. So where does the money go? Really, in my opinion, it goes to China right now. The European Union is a mess. Can’t go there. Indonesia is a likely candidate. But unless the Fed, they can’t hike rates, they need massive stimulus, everything’s rotating out of the United States and out of tech for the time being. I don’t know how long it’s going to last. I mean, I think the tech sales are maybe a couple of weeks.

The Fed needs that to pump the markets via Nasdaq. So I give it a couple of weeks, Max.

TN: Okay. Tracy?

TS: I’m looking at the rotation within just the US market and not the global markets. But we are kind of seeing a rotation from the tech sector from growth to sort of more value real assets. Right. So all week, we’ve seen the Nasdaq pull back. But oil and banking have remained very strong all week.

So I think that’s kind of where just internally where we are seeing the markets, the commodity markets have done really well this week. Metal is included.

TN: And how long does that last? Is that something that’s just a couple of weeks, or is that something that we see happening through Q1?

TS: I mean, I think it really depends on what the Fed decides to do. So if they decide to raise rates, that’s going to kill the tech market. Right. So that’s why I am of the opinion it’s going to be a one and done, because what do you sacrifice? You sacrifice the market. Right.

And are you going to do that? Is the Biden administration going to allow that sort of to happen during an election year? Right.

AM: Tracy is absolutely correct. They’re not going to let that happen. I mean, right now, the entire perception of the economy is doing well is based on the market performance for them to raise rates or rotate. And right now they’re rotating into reflationary names. I mean, that helps now, but they need the market to act. It is solid.

NG: There is a dark with that view because, as I said, either you get a tantrum equities, particularly on growth, or you get a tantrum in bonds, which then feeds into account. Because if they don’t deal with inflation, everybody’s saying, well, January base effects are fantastic. They’re high, but we’re going to benefit from thereafter.

And I’ve got this and Tracy, but I think we will attest to this. And Alberto, there is this point that as things get normalized, crude oil is going to go up because jet fuel will be in huge demand and people are going to be out moving.

In Europe, there’s no normalization of energy prices. They’re already way above normalization. You’re looking at five to six times the price of energy from last year. So this is all going to feed through the system. It goes. Fee through manufacturing services and comes out as core CPI as opposed to full CPI.

AM: Yeah, but I mean, this week, Nick, we’ve seen a 4.5 wage gain causing issues in the market. There’s…

NG: Actually my fault on the date of the day was it was actually the unemployment. They have said the natural rate is 3.6%. If you look at what happened the last time we had unemployment here, we had inflation at I think it was 4% ten year yields with 270%.

AM: Yeah, I understand that, Nick, but everyone right now is talking about disinflation thinking that inflation is going to come down because the bet is going to help push it down. But how do you get rid of wage inflation? There is no way you can sit there and take…

TS: You’re not going to get rid of supply chain issues either.

NG: Push inflation. This is where it’s changed. And I don’t think these central bank staff has realized have accepted this that everything prior to the pandemic was demand poor cost push. So whole different ballgame. They’ve already said they can’t control price of commodities.

Actually, they can because they can. That’s the point. But the point I’m making is we’ve crossed the Rubicon from something that I’m not saying demand hall has gone away. But we’ve crossed the Rubicon from something that would be affected by monetary policy and financial tightening to something that is not going Redux is rough to charge.

TN: Okay. Before we go on there, there are two questions. First, Nick, you said either there’s an equity side tantrum or there’s a bondside tantrum, which is worse.

NG: Oh, the bondside tantrum. Okay. That will also be feed through to the equity market.

TN: Right. Okay. So the bondside tantrum is worse.

NG: For everybody that Feds behind the curve and London control.

TN: Right. And I think that’s well understood. The other question I have is Tracy mentioned one and done. Do we all think the Fed is kind of going to do a one and done? I mean, that’s my view. It sounds like it’s Tracy’s view, Albert, is that what you think?

AM: So I absolutely think so. They can’t let this thing melt down. They’ll bring it down to, like 4400, but that’s it.

TN: Okay. Nick, do you think it’s one and done?

NG: I’m putting my old hat on as a bond market person. Yeah, because they’ll then have to do QE because the bond market won’t sit there.

AM: They will do QE. They will absolutely do QE. They haven’t signed up and they control the bond market as it is anyway, so they can do whatever they want right now. There’s nobody else in the world that can hold us accountable for what they do.

TN: Are you saying QE and Q two? Do you expect QE and Q two?

AM: Absolutely.

TN: Okay. That’s very interesting. All right. I like that. I think that as a thesis is very interesting.

NG: By the way, the rest of the world may need it.

TN: Absolutely. I think they will.

AM: Of course they do.

NG: I’ve got a great piece of trade Union wage claim in Europe. This is hysterical. So the ECB says inflation is going to trend back to the forecast. 2%. It’s all transit free. The guard still on holiday, but she’ll never die by that.

Every person at the ACB by the governors is a member of the ECB trade Union. Do you know what their claim is right now for this year?

TN: They need wage acts.

NG: I think that’s a tell. Oh, yeah, it’s a tell, right. I think other countries may need the Fed’s help. That’s where I veered back towards Albert. In that respect, I don’t know my traditionalist central bank.

TN: Yes, I don’t doubt that at all. Okay, let’s start looking ahead to kind of next week. We’ve got wholesale inventories, NFL, small business, CPI. We’ve got retail sales coming on. What do you expect to happen next week?

Do we expect, say, retail sales to kind of be moderate or do we expect the CPI to moderate, or do we think things will continue as they have been?

NG: I’m an inflation. So I think CPI will be problematic and we’ve seen this inflation data. The estimates have been lower than the actual. So I’m sort of expecting that to occur.

Retail sales. I’ve not really got a view. To be honest.

AM: I think retail sales are going to come in a little bit higher than most people think. I think the luxury market right now is just absolutely on fire. A lot of free money has just been floating around the system and people have been buying things left and right.

I mean, even the credit card data show that consumers have just used more credit. It’s pretty clear.

NG: Okay, so we’re 2% ten year yield. It’s a possibility next week there.

TN: So also the small business survey, the small businesses that I know from auto manufacturers to other things. They’re having a really hard time. So do you think NFIB is going to continue to be positive, or do you think it’s going to trend out?

AM: I think we’re going to go down. I think the entire reason that they’ve been talking about a new business stimulus program in DC.

TS: Exactly 100%. I think we’re definitely going to go see that slowing down, slowing economy.

AM: They need it because they need stimulus anyways in March. So might as well start throwing money around everywhere.

TN: Right. So build back better. Is that dead, or are they going to try to take another run at it this month?

AM: They’ll take another run at it, but it’ll be toned down and probably separated into different pieces.

TN: Okay. Do you think it will ultimately pass and be one and a half trillion or something like that?

AM: I think it’ll be a part of a stimulus hybrid program of build back better with business stimulus program in mind. So it’ll probably be around two and a half trillion.

TN: Two and a half trillion. Okay. Anybody else have a view on that?

NG: With the emphasis on the stimulus as opposed to the build back better.

TN: I think you’re right now.

TS: Yeah, I personally don’t think build back better is going to pass anytime soon.

NG: Great question for Albert Finabaster won’t be broken with it.

AM: No, they’d be absolutely insane for them to try to do that. They know the GOP is going to have the House and the Senate for them to sit there and break the filibuster. It would just lead to absolute chaos for a lot of different policies.

TN: Bad news. That’s really bad news.

AM: If they get rid of the filibuster and they pass that voting law, the next thing that’s going to happen is the GOP is going to use the same method to have voter ID for the entire country and under the same reason and why they want to get rid of the filibuster. It’s a car bout. Really. It’s not an entirely.

NG: Voter ID in Europe is good to go. Everybody has it.

AM: Yes, I know. But this is the United States. I mean, nowhere in the world does about the United States. So we have to differentiate what happens in Europe.

TN: Yes, we do. All right. So what are you guys expecting to see next week? Are we expecting to see this rotation intensify. Nick, what are you expecting to see in say, bonds? Do you see further action in bonds or are we kind of at two for now?

NG: Well, look, I think think we ten years can go from. I always look at the ten year and in fact, many institutions is five. But the ten years gives you enough of the long bond and the inflation out of it. We’re at 176. 77 today close. If the data is strong, we go to two. Yeah. That becomes very interesting.

I mean, we travel a long way this week, right?

TN: Yes.

NG: And if you look at the CFTC data, the market is not short. A lot of blood was built for cause of last year people slowly stepping themselves in where I’m really interested. I mean, if that happens, we continue to see growth to that value.

What I’m interested in is I think the dollar rebounds on Monday. The dollar seems to have days with that lag to what the interest rate markets do. Albert and I have been speaking about this, but I’m interested to see, even with dollar strength, we’ve seen strength in the commodities market. And this is one of our thesis is China is going to be replaced by the Green Revolution.

We found a wonderful study in France that was reported in one of the French dailies that was talking about 60% of copper will be used up in about two or three years. And then he went through all the other key metals for the metal. I think actually, copper go quicker because of the new left winger in Chile.

TN: So you think dollar appreciation and commodities at least industrial metals appreciation for the, say foreseeable future.

NG: I think the whole complex crazy, and that’s where this time around will be rather like people’s disbelief in equities. How can we keep going this time around? We can have the whole commodity complex elevated.

TN: That’s really scary.

TS: I absolutely agree. Absolutely. Well, I mean, my three main themes in the commodities markets since last year and going into at least 2025 is metals, oil and gas and agriculture.

TN: Fantastic. Okay.

AM: I actually think the tech market is going to make a rebound next week just because the Fed is probably defending the 50 day moving average. I think we see a rebound up until the middle of the week next week.

TN: Wonderful guys. Thanks so much for this. Look forward to doing it again next week for everyone watching. Please, like our Twitter page or our YouTube page. Sorry. So you can get alarms for next week. All right.

Thanks, guys. And have a great week ahead.

TS , AM, NG: Thank you.