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In this BFM podcast episode, the hosts interview Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, who explains the sudden downturn in US markets and predicts a slowing rate of rise for the Nasdaq in 2024. Nash also discusses the potential outperformance of finance and banking sectors over cyclicals and forecasts a lackluster year for 2024.
Additionally, the segment covers developments from the UN Climate Change Conference, COP28, and its long-term impact on energy markets. Tony highlights the challenges faced by middle-income and emerging markets in transitioning to green technologies amidst fiscal constraints and higher interest rates. The discussion also touches on the disruptions in the Red Sea region’s supply chain and their potential economic impacts, as well as the positive revenue forecast and strong performance of Micron, a leading US memory chip maker.
Transcript:
BFM
For some thoughts on what’s moving international markets, we have on the line with us, Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Tony, good morning. Thanks for joining us. Very quickly, can maybe you help us understand why US markets are down quite significantly this morning? I thought it was a Christmas rally all the way up to the end of the year. What explains the markets being in the red?
Tony Nash
The old Santa rally? Well, markets were doing great until about 1:30 Eastern time, and then they just fell off a cliff and we closed in the red. Even things like Nasdaq, up until about 1:30 PM, Nasdaq had been up six % for the month, so it was doing extremely well. Then things turned and I think there may be some whispers of an event coming or there’s fear that the Fed isn’t going to be as doveish as was said. I think possibly going into the break, people are really thinking about how much risk they want to have on over the holiday.
BFM
But what does that mean for, I guess, the end of the year performance? Especially if we look at the Nasdaq 100, it is up a whopping 41 % for the year. Are we going to see a repeat of this outperformance next year? Or do you think we’re at the zenith of the euphoria?
Tony Nash
Are we at the zenith? I don’t know. Certainly, the rate of rise will slow. I seriously doubt we’re going to see things fall off dramatically in, say, January. But just to give you an example, we forecast markets, as you know, and currencies and stuff. We had forecast a 5.65% rise in Nasdaq for December. Up until 1:30 today, it had risen 6%. We’re pretty good at forecasting that. Our average expectation for Nasdaq in 2024 is 14,746, which is a fall from now. I would expect we’ll start out Q1 fairly okay, but through the year, the appeal of Nasdaq is going to decline. As people accept that hire for longer is here to stay, which doesn’t mean rates are going to continue to rise, but they’re not going to fall for six cuts or whatever, 10 cuts that some people are saying.
BFM
Tony, it wasn’t solely growth stocks, which captured the limelight. Now, cyclical names like Carnival Cruisers and GE saw their share prices surge 117 and 86% respectively in 2023. Now, are investors likely to see more symmetric returns coming from growth and defensive companies next year?
Tony Nash
It’s unlikely, sadly. We saw companies expand margins with cost inflation as an excuse to justify price rises as incomes grew and government cash handouts accumulated. But we really saw that stuff stop in 2023, second quarter, third quarter with inflation abating. Now, inflation abating doesn’t mean prices falling. It just means that the rate of price rises is slowing. Pay rises are unlikely to continue and consumers will likely have to tighten their belts. As that happens, cyclicals will settle. Things like travel and tourism, things like GE will have to settle a bit. The returns really depend on your risk appetite. So where to look? I would say look at things like finance and banking, some natural resources like miners. I wouldn’t necessarily go directly in commodity prices, but I would look at some of those guys who process natural resources, those sorts of things.
BFM
Tony, overall, what’s your investment outlook and advice for 2024 when it comes to asset allocation then? Because bonds were very volatile this year. Is it going to continue next year? Equity surprisingly did much better despite the talk of a recession that has yet to materialize. What’s your recommendation?
Tony Nash
Yeah, I think if you look at the tenure, for example, I think it’s hard to see the tenure much higher than, say, 4% over the next few months at least. Sentiment is really doveish or has been really doveish. The words out of the Fed, they haven’t completely walked back Powell’s very doveish briefing last week. People still believe that the economy has a way to run and that rates will come down dramatically. I actually think the ’24 is probably going to be a pretty lackluster year. I think after the excitement of the last few years, I think we could all do for a little less excitement for a period of time. But the Fed has really been trying to crush volatility and cap yields. They’re trying to take the risk out of the market, but not have the market get out of control.
BFM
Can we take a look at some of the year and themes that have been circulating around? And this really comes from the UN Climate Change Conference that took place in December COP28. It did stop short of calling for a phase out of fossil fuels, opting instead for a transition away from them and specifically in energy systems. How are markets responding to this development? And what do you think are the implications of investors in the energy sector? Is this more likely to be a long-term development rather than a short term one?
Tony Nash
Absolutely a long-term development. COP28 paved the way for a much longer path to fully green feedstocks. They even talked about coal and released some of the pressure on coal power generation. Part of the problem here is higher interest rates. Higher interest rates are making these very costly green projects much more expensive. The government bureaucrats who are really pushing this stuff have to find a way to temper expectations for that green spending without completely surrendering to the fiscal constraints. A lot of these, say, middle income and emerging markets that are pushing green projects or having been pushed on them, this is where budgets are super tight. Look at a country like Sri Lanka where they have an IMF support. There’s push for green technologies, but they just can’t afford to do it. A lot of countries are looking at balancing that out and trying to figure out how they continue to move toward a greener future, but balancing out the fiscal reality of higher interest rates and budget constraints.
BFM
Now, we’ve been reading news about disruptions in their supply chain, especially in the Red Sea region. Now, geopolitical tensions have caused shipping companies to divert over $30 billion worth of cargo away from the Red Sea? What are the potential economic impacts, especially on the price of oil from disruptions on global supply chains?
Tony Nash
Yeah, it really depends on the horizon and how long this is going to last. I would expect this to be a relatively short-term event. If it is a relatively short-term event, then it’s pretty inconvenient. It’s pretty inconvenient, but it’s not really all that costly because we have shipping rates that are pretty low, we have fuel rates that are pretty low. The impact, aside from delays, and in the West, we’re at the end of the holiday season or we’re mid holiday season, but things shipping have already shipped in terms of finished goods. So the impact on consumers isn’t going to be felt like this is… If they’re going to do this, this is probably a really good time of year to do it because everything’s in shops.
BFM
Tony, thanks so much for speaking to us. And Merry Christmas to you. We look forward to catching up in the new year. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead, commenting there on the shipping disruptions in the Red Sea, as well as what the impact might be on oil prices also coming up out of COP28 and just the developments that could happen in the energy landscape.
BFM
I wonder whether 2024 is going to be the year of the Magnificent Seven, right? It was so much talked about in 2023, these seven stocks that literally lifted up the Nasdaq and, of course, the S&P 500, of course, the seven A, Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet, Amazon, Nvidia, Meta, and Tesla.
BFM
I feel like it’s getting longer and longer. It used to be the fang stocks, and then it was like FAG, and then now it’s the Magnificent Seven.
BFM
Yeah, it went from 1A to double As, right? And now it’s a whole new acronym. So I don’t know, are they going to add a new Magnificent 8, 9, 10, or is it just going to be down to maybe that magnificent three, because some haven’t done so well. For example, Tesla is the one that actually hasn’t performed at all. That surprised me. But talking about, I think overnight, there was a big US talk that came out with the results, the biggest chip maker there, which is actually Micron, and they did better than expected.
BFM
That’s right. Micron issued a strong revenue forecast for the current period and reporting for the first quarter results topped Wall Street estimates. This really sent the shares of Micron surging about four % in extended trading. This is as data center demand is making up for a slowly recovering PC and smartphone market.
BFM
In the fiscal first quarter that ended on 13th of November, Micron saw a 16 % year-on-year rise in its revenue to $4.7 billion. Loss per share came in 95 cents, which was better than what analysts’ estimates are. And now the largest US maker on memory chips expects fiscal second quarter revenue to be between $5.1 to $5.5 billion, versus an average estimate of $4.99 billion.
BFM
Okay, so this pales in comparison with NVIDIA, which also does chips, but of course, NVIDIA is all about artificial intelligence. It’s the number one proxy if you want to write that theme. But Micron, on a year to date basis, still up 54 %. Now, does the street like this? Because it hasn’t been doing so well in the past in terms of the results. Are we at the trough? And the indications are yes. So unsurprisingly, there are 30 buys, seven holds, two sales. Consensus target price for Micron is $85.25. During after-market hours, actually, the stock did trade up eight %, so indicating that I think investors are going to be more optimistic just based on the guidance that the company is giving.
BFM
All right, it is 7:17 AM. Let’s head into some messages, but we’ll come back to cover the top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned, BFM 89.9.
Investors were not impressed by results from Meta and Alphabet leading to a sell-off in tech stocks on Wall Street. We speak to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, to find out how results from Apple and Amazon set to come out soon might impact overall market sentiment.
Transcript
BFM
This is a podcast from BFM 89.9, The Business Station.
BFM
BFM 89 Nine. Good morning. You’re listening to the Morning Run. I’m Shazana Mokhtar with Keith Kam. It’s 7:06am on Thursday, the 27 October a rather overcast Thursday morning. For now, perhaps we’ll see the sun come out a little bit later. As always, we’re kickstarting the morning with a look at how global markets closed overnight.
BFM
It was a bit of a mixed day for what generally red though the Dow Jones on Wall Street, the Dow Jones ended marginally higher, that’s 0.01% barely changed. S&P 500 was down 0.7%. But the action was on the Nasdaq that closed 2% lower because of disappointing results from Meta and Alphabet. We’ve just got to wait for the Apple and Amazon results that will be out tonight US time. So we’ll be discussing that tomorrow. Early in the day, Asian markets were generally green. The Nikkei was up 0.7%, the Hang Seng was up 1%. The Shanghai Composite and Singapore’s STI, they were both 0.8% higher. And back home the FBM KLCI closed 0.7% up.
BFM
For some thoughts on what’s moving international markets, we have on the line with us Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence. Good morning, Tony, thanks for joining us today. Now, notwithstanding overnight results, global equities led by US stocks have extended gains over the last week, avoid by the expectations that peak inflation has been reached. What do you think? Are they being too sanguine about inflationary pressures?
TN
I don’t necessarily think they’re being too sanguine. There are cases to be made that housing prices and wage growth have turned the corner. Goods price inflation has likely peaked, but there doesn’t necessarily mean that we’ll see prices decline. Regardless of what’s happening in the inflation environment. The Fed is going to raise rates in November, likely by 75 basis points and again in December. So the Fed typically lags inflation on both sides on the way up and on the way down and so they’re likely going to over tighten. Markets have largely factored in a 75 and 50 basis point hike over the next two months. So are they sanguine? I don’t know. I think if we start to see inflation really take a downward turn, then it could be a very good thing for all of us.
BFM
But Tony, the 75 basis point expected hike by the Feds comes at a time when a lot of analysts are also expecting recession to hit the US sometime sometime next year. Would there be some reassessment as we go along?
TN
Well, we’ve already had kind of negative economic growth for half a year, so we do need to see jobs come down. And with the tech earnings coming out, as you guys mentioned in the news segment, we expect tech companies to announce some pretty major layoffs before the end of the year.
BFM
Let’s get into that a little bit, Tony, in terms of tech results, I mean we did see Meta overnight, we’ve seen how Microsoft also came in below market expectations. What do you think this tells us about the direction of the tech sector moving forward, especially with this environment of rising interest rates and a looming global recession?
TN
Yeah, well, tech companies have overhired. They were hiring based on valuation, not necessarily based on revenue. And so now that their valuations have come down, they have excess staff and they need to clear the decks. And the productivity within the technology sector, although it sounds a little weird, the productivity is pretty low because they’ve had too many people. So as these companies come out and give pretty sad earnings reports, there’s going to be pushback from investors that they need to lay people off, and that will come out in the next couple of months. So we’ll see some of that. Now, if you compare that to, say, companies like Coca Cola and GM who beat the street, those companies have been able to pass on cost rises to their customers, so they’ve factored in cost rises to their price. Now, many of those companies saw volumes decline, but price rises more than made up for the volume decline. So they’ve beat expectations by raising price, in many cases by double digits.
BFM
Tony, we’re expecting Amazon and Apple results to come out tonight, and what we’ve seen from the previous results have sort of, well, dampened market sentiment, if you may, what are your expectations going forward?
TN
Yeah, I don’t think they’re going to be stellar results. I think Amazon had this, at least in the states, they had this kind of second prime day a couple of days ago to goose sales revenues for the quarter, which tells me that things are not stellar at Amazon, and so there are signs that things aren’t working out. The new iPhone is kind of a yarn for a lot of people, so it’s not necessarily pushing out. And so I think the expectations are for pretty mediocre results. So if they report in excess of expectations, then tomorrow will be a fantastic day in markets. But I don’t think that’s necessarily likely at this point.
BFM
All right, something we’re going to be keeping an eye on. Another thing to keep an eye on is the slew of indicators that are going to be coming out. We’ve got US GDP, durable goods, and initial jobless claims numbers. Which indicator are you paying the most attention to in terms of being a gauge of how well the economy is going?
TN
Yeah, one of the things that I always tell people to be careful of with some of these macroeconomic numbers is things like GDP. What’s being announced is what’s called a preliminary release. So they kind of have a sketch of what’s happening in the economy, but it’s not detailed. So when these GDP announcements come out and it’s the first release, it’s not really accurate. And those things can change by 50% or more in some cases. So GDP is not really something I look to. It’s kind of a headline, but it doesn’t really mean a whole lot.
TN
Durable goods is interesting because that tells me that people are investing in things, buying things that last a long time so that they can deliver new services or new products in, say, three to six months time. So that would tell me people are looking forward. So if durable goods is a bad number, then it tells me people are really just trying to take care of today and not investing in the future.
TN
Jobless claims. I don’t know. Sometimes it’s meaningful, sometimes it’s not. I think the sentiment around jobless claims is overhyped. The Fed is definitely watching jobless claims because they want to see wages and jobs come down. So with jobless claims, it’s one of those good news and bad news types of things. So we’re kind of hoping for a poor jobless claims so that the Fed can kind of tick off the box and say, mission accomplished.
BFM
Tony I just want to pick your brains on this. We’ve seen three straight days of market gains on Wall Street and this morning, or rather last night for you or today for you. We’ve just seen a reversal of that. Is this an indication that maybe fortunes might be changing going forward?
TN
I think it’s a good question, and I think it’s hope that the Fed is changing course. And I think regardless of what comes out, say, this month, and I think probably next month, I don’t think the Fed is going to change course. They were caught flat footed. They said that inflation was transitory, they messed up, they’re embarrassed, and they’re going to make people feel it. And people are going to lose jobs and homes and all sorts of things because regional Fed governors don’t want to be embarrassed again. So I think at least over the next two months, they’re probably not going to change course. They’re going to continue to tighten. I don’t think there’s been a dramatic change in everything. I think this is a little bit of hope, and I think it is some earnings that have been reported that are better than expected. But I think in general, people are being very cautious about trades they make.
BFM
Tony let’s end the conversation with a look at oil prices. They are taking a breather on news that US stock bells have risen. How will that translate in terms of energy prices as the Northern Hemisphere moves into winter?
TN
Yeah, the SPR, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve release, it’s put a lot of volume in the market in recent months. And of course, that’s lowered crude prices and it’s lowered the price of refined products. So after the election, and it’s no secret we expect the SPR releases to decline dramatically. And we’ve talked for a few months about how we expect crude prices to kind of spike towards the end of the year. And that would be spikes in crude prices and downstream products like, say, petrol. So we do expect that to happen in the North American market, kind of in Q4 and through Q1 out of the effects of that SPR release wear off.
BFM
And meanwhile, OPEC has also forecasted that China’s oil demand will decline by 60,000 barrels per day. Is that something that you see could cap further spikes in prices?
TN
It could. I mean, 60,000 barrels isn’t a lot, but it could. I think if China were simply to end COVID Zero, it would really drive consumption of crude. So OPEC must expect further dampening of the economy in China, and that’s no surprise. I mean, China is really having a hard time right now, and whether or not they can come back in ’23 is questionable, so it’s no surprise. But 60,000 barrels a day really isn’t a lot, and I don’t think it would affect prices dramatically.
BFM
Tony, thanks as always, for speaking with us this morning. That was Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, giving us his take on some of the trends that he sees moving markets in the days and weeks ahead.
BFM
Yeah, so we did see Meta shares plummet 17% on week fourth quarter forecast. And earning miss. It basically came up well short of Wall Street’s expectations. Earnings per shares earnings per share was $1.64 versus a $1.89, which was what was expected. Revenue was at $27.7 billion. Daily active users did meet expectations at 1.98 billion users, and the monthly active users came in at 2.96 billion versus 2.94 billion.
BFM
I mean, Meta is contending with a broad slowdown in online ad spending, challenges from Apple’s iOS privacy update and increased competition from other players like TikTok. It’s getting more expensive to run the company as Meta’s costs and expenses rose 19% year over year to $22.1 billion. And that’s something that Tony alluded to earlier, the fact that they’re likely going to see more layoffs moving forward. Tech companies have just been on a hiring spree that they cannot afford at this point. And I bet the WhatsApp outage the other day didn’t help a Meta’s fortunes either, at least in terms of its reputation and image. It could see a lot of people try to migrate elsewhere from using WhatsApp as their main communication source to another platform that is more stable, perhaps.
BFM
I must say we could wait until to see what happens towards the end of the year. Well, November actually, just next month when the midterm elections come, and we see if there’s any pick up in usage then.
BFM
That’s true. All right, it is 7:18 in the morning. We’re heading into some messages, and when we come back, we will be covering the top stories in the newspapers and portals this morning. Stay tuned. BFM 89.9. You’ve been listening to.
BFM
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Yield curve inversion is on everybody’s mind and it only seems to be intensifying. It’s happened 4 times over the last 22 years. What does it mean, how does it impact Fed policy and how will it impact markets more broadly?
Energy prices are still a big problem and the Biden administration this week announced a very large release from the strategic petroleum reserve. Will this really bring down prices on a sustained basis? And what are some of the unintended consequences of the SPR release?
We’ve seen tech names rally pretty hard since mid-March like Alphabet and Meta. What’s happening and how long will the tech rally last?
Key themes from last week
Inverted yield curve and Fed policy
SPR release and crude market impacts
Tech’s comeback?
Key themes for the Week Ahead
Rubles for O&G. When will Europe give in?
Housing stocks and the housing market
Mixed messages of simultaneous stimulus and tightening (rate hikes with energy stimulus)
This is the 13th episode of The Week Ahead in collaboration of Complete Intelligence with Intelligence Quarterly, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.
0:00 Start 1:00 Key themes of last week 1:29 What the yield curve means and how it impacts the Fed policy 4:50 The Fed has to break something? 6:33 Large release from SPR, will this bring down the crude prices? 8:30 Viewer question: Will Biden’s threat to US drillers produce the desired results? 12:19 Tech rally? 14:16 Key themes for the week ahead. 14:44 How long before Europe pays ruble for oil and gas? 18:52 Home builders VS real estate 21:00 What do people read from tightening, easing, and all the stimulus?
TN: Hi and welcome to The Week Ahead. I’m Tony Nash. I’m joined by Albert Marko, Sam Rines and Tracy Shuchart. Thanks for joining us. Before we get started, I’d like to ask you to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. Also, want to let you know about CI Futures, our subscription product. We cover thousands of assets and economic concepts on CI Futures. Our forecasts are refreshed every weekend. You come in Monday morning and have a brand new forecast each week. Right now we’re offering a special subscription price of $50 a month. Please go to completeintel.com/promo and find out more.
So this week we had a few key themes. First is the inverted yield curve curve and Fed policy. Second is the SPR release and crude market. And the third is around tech. Is there a comeback in tech?
Sam, you’re up first. Let’s talk about the yield curve. It’s on everyone’s mind and it only seems to be intensifying. It’s happened four times over the last 22 years. So Albert and Sam, can you help us understand what does it mean? How does it impact Fed policy? Are they going to be more cautious going forward and how will it import markets more broadly?
AM: Well, Tony, concerning the inverting the yield curve, Jerome Powell doesn’t really want to do that. However, Janet Yellen does want to invert the yield curve. This is the divide that’s been throwing off the market analyst for quite a long time, quite a while now, actually, myself and I just found out and realized where the divide was. And normally in a deep quad for to take something from hedgeeye’s commentary, the only things that you can buy are Treasuries and gold. And right now Powell will be fighting a tide because of the long dated treasure is the number one thing to own in that scenario. So trying to protect stocks while hurting housing, and then you have Yellen that’s trying to protect housing. It’s quite a mess. And it’s probably something like Sam can actually detail the inverted yield curve on.
TN: So why are there are two camps just to go into that down that trail for a second?
AM: Well, it’s a policy, it’s ideology, basically. Yellen did this before in 2013, 2014, I believe. And Powell is not really an economist. He’s a lawyer. So he’s probably hearing it from his little circle of miscreants. So that’s where that’s coming from.
TN: People, whoever is listening.
AM: I’m sure they’re fine people. I’m sure they are. I think Yellen is probably correct in this instance, but we’ll see how that plays out.
TN: Okay, Sam, what do you think?
SR: Yeah, in inverted yield curve, generally, everybody’s like, hey, recession on the horizon. In reality, yeah. I mean, there’s always a recession at some point on the horizon. And what the yield curve tells you is that there’s one coming in the future. No kidding. But it’s not good for one timing, a recession period.
TN: So we’ve got the 2/10 spread on the screen right now. So can you tell us what does that mean and how much importance does that hold with that two and ten yield spread going negative?
SR: I mean, it’s something to pay attention to. I mean, the market is telling you something with that. There is some signal, even if there’s noise in there as well, that the Fed is going to go very, very quickly and is likely to break housing or break something else or break housing and something else. And that’s going to probably cause inflation to come back down. Right.
The market does not believe that or at least fixed income market does not believe that inflation is going to be a problem in ten years, does not believe that the Fed is going to be able to hold interest rates very high for very long. And that’s why you get the 2/10s inverted. Right. The Fed is going to go above what the “natural rate or the stall rate” is for the US economy.
TN: Right. So we’ve been saying for several weeks the demand destruction is the only way that the Fed is going to solve supply side inflation. And the last couple of weeks you’ve talked about the Fed breaking something at this point, the Fed almost has to break something. Right? I mean, Volker broke something in the early 80s. Right. Something has to be broken.
SR: Yes. Something has to be broken or you’re not going to solve the inflation issue. And you have to do it. You have to do it in a pretty rapid manner of tightening in order to get the inflation levels that we have now back to something somewhat reasonable in a time frame that is adequate. But again, it doesn’t tell you what’s going to break. We talked about it last week. Housing looks sick. Housing equities look sick. It does not look great, but it doesn’t tell you much about the broader market. Right. It’s a lot of noise. You can say that it’s bad for equities, but generally it takes a while for it to be bad for equities.
TN: Okay, great. Now, JPMorgan put out a note this week. Everyone’s putting out notes about when rates are going to rise. They said 50 in May 50 in June. Are you thinking that or is that kind of on the edge of aggressive?
SR: I mean, it’s aggressive, but the Fed has very little choice but to be aggressive in this instance or it’s going to lose credibility further. And that’s an issue for it. Right. It doesn’t want to lose that little bit of credibility it has left to raising rates too slowly in an environment where it’s getting the green light to do so from markets. Markets have it priced in. Why not do it?
TN: Yeah. If someone said in January that we’d be raising 50 in May, 50 in June, I think you’d be laughed at. But now it’s taken seriously. So it’s just really interesting to see the iteration of that expectations.
Okay. Speaking of inflation, let’s move on to energy prices. Tracy, obviously, there’s still a big problem. And this week, the Biden administration announced a very large release from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. You’ve been all over this, including the Tweet you sent out on Thursday, which is on our screen talking about logistical issues.
So the main question I think for most people is will this bring down oil prices on a sustainable basis? So can you talk to us about that and some of the unintended consequences of the SPR release?
TS: Yeah, absolutely. It’s not enough to keep oil prices sustainably lower. Right. It doesn’t fix the structural supply deficit that we have years to come. Also, this slows shale growth because it disincentivizes shale producers from drilling more, which actually needs to be done and also creates potential logistical bottlenecks because we’ve never released this much before. That could cause congestion on the Gulf Coast. And that Tweet is up I think, talking about the bottlenecks there.
And then there’s another issue that has not been discussed yet broadly. And that’s because the SPR is aging. Right. And so we’ve had releases before where we’ve seen degradation in oil. And in 2015, they approved the $2 billion upgrade to the SPR, which is not going to be done until 2025. That said, what they did is they did everything except for the distribution centers. So what will happen is we need to see if we can actually get a million barrels per day pushed through. So there’s a lot of obstacles here.
TN: So it’s a sentimental kind of downside for oil right now. Nothing’s really released yet. And it doesn’t seem all that feasible that it’ll come out soon. Right. So supply chain issues like we’re seeing everywhere else.
So we had a viewer question from @VandanaHari_SG. It says, to what extent will Biden’s threat to us drillers to drill or get off the lease, produce desired results? You mentioned Frackers earlier. Will we see much movement there?
TS: No. Biden did call for Congress to make this decision. Personally, I do not believe that this will actually get passed by Congress. That said, again, this disincentivizes oil companies from producing more because it’s not that easy to just turn on wells. They’re facing labor shortages. They’re facing supply chain shortages. It’s not that easy to do that.
So if you tell them we’re going to tax you on this, then if they abandon those wells, then it’s going to take that much longer to get them back online when they are ready to. So all in all, it’s a horrible idea. Again, I do not see Congress passing this whatsoever.
TN: It’s complicated. And I think that’s the thing that we live in a world that likes to simplify things a lot. Right. And we like to say we’re going to do X, we’re going to do Y, we’re going to do Z. And the implementation of this stuff seems to be a lot more complicated Than we hear from, say, these non experts that talk to us all day long on TV or social media.
TS: Exactly. I mean…
TN: We can’t just wave a wand fixed supply.
TS: And turn on oil wells. I mean, regardless, we run through our DUC supply. Right. And that’s why we’re seeing slower oil production. The monthly EIA monthly just came out yesterday. It was 11.37 million barrels instead of 11.6 million that they were estimating in the weekly. And so what happens is that you’re pulling down DUC wells, which are the ones that you can get up easily, and then you’re putting all these restraints on oil companies and threatening them with taxes and things of that nature.
To get a well online from start to finish is six to twelve months. People don’t realize it’s not let’s snap our fingers and tomorrow we’re spreading oil.
TN: It’s not exactly a nudge. Right? Remember, under the Obama administration, they really focused on condomin and the nudge and all that stuff. This is kind of the opposite of that. It’s like the bludgeon.
TN: Yeah, exactly.
TS: Doing what they want. Right. Sorry. Go ahead.
AM: No, this is just political rhetoric. I mean, they’re better off just jumping into the oil futures market and trying to drive it down. This is just talk by the Biden administration. There’s really no substance to it.
TN: Can they jump into the futures market and short it and drive the price down?
AM: Who says they haven’t? Okay. You’re looking at 127 price and all of a sudden it’s down in the 90s. Is this crypto crude? What are we doing here?
TN: Okay, that’s a good point. All right.
SR: Just one last point to that. I know Tracy actually think Tracy tweeted this out a couple of weeks ago. The latest Dallas Fed survey of oil companies made it pretty clear that a lot of them at no, they don’t care where the prices. They’re not increasing their output. They put that on paper and put that in the survey. I think that’s worth remembering is that this is a less price sensitive reaction than people are going to give credit for.
TS: 100%.
AM: Yes.
TN: Okay, great, guys. That’s fantastic. Let’s move on to equities. Albert, we’ve seen tech stocks rallied pretty hard for the last couple of weeks since about March 14th. We’ve got chart for Alphabet and Facebook on the screen right now. Sorry. Meta on the screen right now. What’s happening to tech? What’s happened over the last couple of weeks and how long do you expect them to rally?
AM: Well, they’ve used tech, maybe a dozen names to rally the market. This is well known. I mean, if you look at those names that you have listed along with AMD, Nvidia and Adobe, they can be up to 30, 40% of the call action on a given day. It’s kind of silly, but honestly, it’s like this is a zero rate economy at the moment. So as our rates go up. Yeah. So as our rates go up, I don’t see how tech is going to rally much further.
TN: Okay, Go ahead.
TS: I’ll just throw in that just because BAMO came out with their weekly flows that we’ve had, tech market was $3.1 billion, which is the highest in two months.
TN: Okay. Interesting. All right. So if we go with the note that came out that in May and June will see 50 basis point rises, and you’re saying tech can’t continue to rally into higher interest rates, are you saying we’re looking at that type of horizon for tech to not be as attractive?
AM: Yeah, unless they reverse course come June or July. I don’t see how tech can really rally to what their all time highs were a couple of months. I don’t see it.
TN: Sam, does that make sense to you?
SR: It does make sense to me. I think the only saving grace for tech thus far has been that the long end of the curve hasn’t done much, and it actually looks a little sick at the moment in terms of yield. And that’s been a little bit of a semi tailwind, at least prop them up.
TN: Great. Okay, perfect. Let’s look at the week ahead. Some things we have for the week ahead are rubles for oil and gas. When will Europe give in? Housing stocks and the housing market? Sam mentioned that earlier. We’ll dive a little deeper into that and then the mixed messages around simultaneous stimulus and tightening, which I think is confusing some people.
So first, let’s dive into rubles for oil and gas. I did a quick Twitter survey earlier, which is up on your screen asking people how long before Europe caves and pays for oil and gas and rubles. Something like 70% of people think they’ll do that within two weeks. It’s just a Twitter survey. Some of those guys are experts. Some of those aren’t. Tracy, what do you think? Is that realistic?
TS: Putin actually came out today and said this is the plan. There is no backing out. However, it doesn’t include what you pretty much already bought. That means. So deliveries until most delivery until April 15, and then really in May 1 is where that really starts, where Europe will really have to start paying in rubles.
TN: So May 1 is when you think the rubles?
TS: May 1 is really when the bulk of this situation will come in hand because it’s not for what has already been ordered. Right.
TN: Okay.
TS: Does that make sense?
TN: You think we could see a trickle in mid April?
TS: Yeah, exactly. But I think that they’re going to have to do that. They really have no other choice unless they kind of want to plunge into the dark ages. Right there’s just not the backup plan is forming, but it’s just not there yet. So I think that they will concede even though they have a little bit of a time. They have 15 to 30 days to really. But you can’t move that fast. It’s not that easy to change suppliers that quickly.
TN: But we’ve talked about this a little bit. But what happens to say industrial output? German manufacturing if they decide not to do this? To be honest, it sounds like a pretty trivial thing to me to pay in another currency. There is a transaction cost to it. But if you’ve got a major economy, it doesn’t sound like something that you can really stand by insisting to pay in dollars. So what happens to German manufacturing? What happens to industrial cost Europe.
TS: It’ll actually plummet. I mean, BASF already came out and said we’re going to have to cut production if this happens. The German plan is basically to shut down manufacturing and to give residential the leeway if they have to start rationing. So that means if manufacturing starts shutting down in Europe, you’re in recession territory immediately.
AM: Yeah. They’ll find a way. They’ll find some special vehicle to sort this out. They got a little bit of time, like Tracy said, they got about two months really to sort this out. And anyways, the weather is starting to get warmer, so the less gas will be used. Anyway, I don’t see this to be really of a big problem. It’s just a lot of noise and a little bit of leverage from Russia on the sanctions that they are getting hit by well.
TN: But conceivably because of the embargoes on some of the banks in Russia, it could be a real issue with having funds rubles in Russian banks. No?
AM: I don’t think so. They can go between the Swiss, London will do it. It’s the same thing as the Yuan, renminbi, it’s like when they trade it for oil, the Saudis sell it in renminbi and goes to London, gets converted instantly and it’s dollars almost immediately to the seller. So I don’t think it’s going to be a problem.
TS: I 100% agree that the currency doesn’t really matter because it’s still factored into what is the dollar value. Right. It doesn’t really matter or any in Europe’s case, what is Euro per megawatt hour?
Regardless, it’s not really the currency that matters so much. The fact is the currency is helping. What Russia is trying to do is that if you have to sell euros to buy rubles, that keeps the currency afloat.
TN: Right. Which we’ve seen it surge back this week to pre war levels. Okay, great. Let’s move on to homes and home builders. Sam, you mentioned the housing market and housing stocks earlier, and we’ve got on the screen a chart about US real estate and home builders and the divergence between those. And they’re usually pretty correlated. Can you talk us through your expectations for real estate relative to where homebuilders are trading right now?
SR: They’ll look like homebuilders pretty quickly here. It’s what the Fed is basically able to do in terms of the economy quickly. Right. If you’re going to tighten rates by two and a half percent in a year, plus quantitative tightening, that’s what you’re going to hit. You’re going to hit home builders and real estate. That’s generally what you’re going to hit and you’re going to hit it fast.
In particular, the shorter duration type real estate that’s benefited the most from zero rates. If the long end of the curve stays somewhat subdued, you’re probably fine if you have longer duration type retail or that type of lease. But the shorter term duration real estate type plays are going to be in some trouble here.
TN: Okay. And so you say it’s going to happen pretty quickly. Last week you said it’s going to happen in Q2. When I first heard that, I was a little bit surprised. But just seeing what’s happened over the past week, it’s been really surprising to me that things have moved so quickly. So I think you’re right. I’m really interested to see that happen.
Now. You also mentioned QT. So let’s talk a little bit about kind of the tightening and easing, the simultaneous tightening and easing that we have going on. And how do we expect that to move over the next week? So, Sam, you’ve been pretty insistent that QT is going to start in May, is that right?
SR: Oh, yes. Little doubt.
TN: Definitely going to start in May. Now we’ve got countries and States giving energy stimulus and other things happening. I wouldn’t be surprised if different forms of stimulus come out. So how does it work where we have really fairly significant stimulus coming out as we’re tightening? What do people read from that?
SR: I would say confusion. Right. If you’re trying to actually tackle if you’re trying to tackle inflation with monetary policy, that really has to break something in order to get it under control, and yet you’re giving people more leeway to not have something break more money in their pockets. It’s counterproductive. Right. So you begin to either have to tighten more or tighten quicker or both to get it under control or you have to stop it with the fence full fiscal.
TN: What are you hearing about that Albert out of DC?
AM: I was on this program. When was it? About a year ago, talking about tapering with Andreas, and I was against tapering. I never think it was going to happen, but because the fact that we just keep going on QE, how do you tighten when you have QE and the Fed balance sheet is still expanding by 100 billion plus a week. I mean, that’s not.
This is why there’s so much confusion in the market. Like Sam was saying, it’s just you talk about tightening. Meanwhile, you secretly spend $160 billion to pump the market. So which one is it? As an analyst, how do you even assess what you’re going to do over the next 30 days when the Fed’s confused? The Fed and Treasury is confused.
TN: So can we have that where we’re say doing tightening but helping equity markets continue to rise?
TS: I mean, is that just weird? Of course it does. It is weird. You can’t have monetary policy going head to head with fiscal policy. Right. So you’re having fiscal policy loosening. At least let’s look at the energy markets right now. You can’t have all of this stimulus and it’s not just from the United States. It’s from across the world is doing this and we’re going to see more of this every week of new countries come out and save money.
TN: Not in Japan. Japan is easing across the board.
TS: Yeah.
TN: Everyone else.
TS: True. But of course, I agree completely with the Sam said it’s confusion in the markets because you are literally having central banks butting heads with governments right now.
AM: Yeah. And that’s something people don’t really pay attention to. It’s not simply the US federal reserve with the US economy, but it’s the federal reserve with all of anglesphere. They can have the Canadians or the UK do tightening while we do expansion and vice versa. They can do it unending. It’s unbelievable.
TN: So when do we know the direction? When do we know whether we’re tightening or easing? Do we come to a point like is May the end point for easing?
AM: I don’t know, Tony. I can’t really tell you that because they can say that they’re doing that and then we find out two months later that they didn’t do it and they can use all sorts of weird little gimmicks that they have control over.
TN: Okay, Sam, what do you think?
SR: I think the comment about the Anglosphere was really interesting because it’s 100% true, right. If you look at a lot of the EMS, they’ve been talking lightning for a year or at least nine months. So I think that’s the really intriguing kind of comment for me is the US is probably so late to the game that EM is going to be easing by the time the Fed actually accomplishes any sort of tightening.
TS: They’ll have to, they will have to.
SR: Which sets something interesting up, by the way.
TN: Sorry.
SR: Which sets something interesting up for when that happens. But that’s down the road.
TN: It really does. Yeah. Remember synchronized easing and synchronized tightening a decade ago? I just feel we have so many mixed messages out there that it’s no wonder we have the volatility that we have in market. Okay. Thanks very much for this. I really appreciate it. Have a great week ahead.
Earnings data is continuing to trickle out of the US, ahead of an FOMC meeting set to begin tomorrow. We speak to Tony Nash, CEO of Complete Intelligence, about what we can expect from both the meeting and upcoming earnings reports.
