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How low will gasoline go? Recession worries & Japan hits 2% – The Week Ahead – 12 Dec 2022

Explore your CI Futures options: http://completeintel.com/inflationbuster

This Week Ahead is a special episode because it was recorded live, with guests Albert Marko, Sam Rines, and Mike Smith, together with host Tony Nash in a face-to-face conversation. It’s also the first time that we had a Twitter Spaces, joined by a few people and taking their questions.

Gasoline prices have continued to decline here in the US. Since June, RBOB has been pretty much one way, sliding from ~$4.30 to $2.16. That’s half. Of course, lower crude prices are a huge factor, but over the summer we were hearing all about refinery capacity. Is there more to it than the oil price? XLE vs crude – XOM closing in on 100, etc. How much of an impact is this having to help affordability given the broader inflationary environment?

Inflation is proceeding unabated, as we saw in Sam’s newsletter this week. Some Goldman guy was out this week saying there may be a recession in 2023. Sam looked at the terminal rate in his newsletter this week. How would accelerated inflation or steepening of recession worries affect the Fed’s actions?

We had BOJ head Kuroda (who has been in the job for a decade) begin talking about Japan hitting its 2% inflation target. If that were to happen, how likely would the BOJ be to scale back its ultra-loose monetary policy? Impact on Japan’s equity market, govt bonds, etc.

Key themes
1. How low will gasoline go?
2. Inflation/Recession worries
3. The day after Japan hits 2%

This is the 45th episode of The Week Ahead, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.

Follow The Week Ahead panel on Twitter:
Tony: https://twitter.com/TonyNashNerd
Albert: https://twitter.com/amlivemon
Sam: https://twitter.com/SamuelRines
Tracy: https://twitter.com/chigrl

Transcript

Tony

I just want to say hi and welcome to The Week Ahead. I’m Tony Nash. We’ve got a couple of special items for this show today. First, Albert Marko is in Houston, Texas. So we’re doing a live in-person Week Ahead with Sam. Tracy will be on Spaces eventually. We also have a special guest, Mike Smith, who’s a partner at Avidian Wealth here in Houston. Second, this is our first Twitter Spaces, so this may be a little clunky and we may make some mistakes, so just bear with us, if you don’t mind.

So Mike, Sam and Tracy eventually, and Albert, thanks for joining us. I really appreciate the fact that you guys have come today.

We have a couple of key themes today. The first is how low will gasoline go? Gasoline prices I think nationally are around $2.99 are approaching that in the US. So we want to take a little bit of a look at that to understand what’s happening there. We also want to talk about inflation and recession worries. Sam will go into that quite a lot and we’ll try to figure out what’s happening with inflation.

And then we’ll talk about Japan post 2% inflation. So there have been some comments from Abe at the BOJ about Japan hitting 2% inflation, and we’ll talk about that a little bit.

Okay, so Albert just joined us. So let’s get started on gasoline prices. Guys, since June, RBOB has really come down from 430 to about 216. So it’s about 50% or 49 point something percent.

Of course, lower crude prices are a huge factor. We’ve seen crude prices come down in that time as well. So is there more to go on crude prices? On gasoline prices? Like I said, we’re waiting for Tracy, but she’s not joining. So I’m just going to throw it open to you guys. What’s your thought on gasoline? Because we’re entering the holiday season, it’s going to be a lot of driving. There’s a lot of inflationary pressures, which we’ll talk about in the next segment. But I’m just curious what your thoughts are on room for gasoline prices to fall.

Albert

Well, I think they guess some prices are going to fall because price of oil just keeps on going down. I think at the moment, whatever brokers, government entities or whatever we want to talk about is starting to drive down the price of oil because it’s beneficial to the political situation. So I think that oil, as it drifts down towards 60s, mid sixty s, the price of gasoline will also come down.

Tony

What are you hearing? We’re in Houston, energy capital of the world.

Sam

What are you going to yeah, it’s hard to make a call on the energy price kind of in its relation to gasoline for a couple of reasons. One, we really don’t know where any spare capacity can come from in terms of the ability to refine at this point.

You’re running at 96% utilization rates for refinery capacity, that’s pretty much peak. So if you have any sort of hiccup there, you’re going to have a problem on the gasoline front.

Tony

So hurricane season is over. Do you see any reasonable hiccups coming? Obviously may be unexpected, but when you’re.

Sam

Running at 96% capacity, it doesn’t take much to have a small problem. Right. And if you go from 96% to call it 90% because of an accidental outage, that could be something rather significant for the gasoline market. So while oil prices, you know, appear to be fairly volatile right now, it’s, it’s hard to translate that back into a gasoline price.

Mike

I know if 86 degrees here in Houston, but unpredictable winter can happen. I know it’s a little bit of a delay, but we don’t know. These weather patterns can happen. We could have a colder than expected winter and that could probably trigger as well.

Albert

Rail strikes is another issue. Talking about any kind of strikes in the transport industry, diesel prices making truckers, you know, trucking more. It’s not anything.

Tony

Right. I just saw Tracy pop in and then she popped out. So once she comes in, we’ll come back to her on this. Thank you. Okay, that’s great. And we’re seeing, we’ve seen XLE, the energy companies, the energy operators, we’ve seen XLE stay pretty elevated as crude prices have come down. There’s typically kind of a four to six month lead between crude prices coming down and XLE coming down. So when we look at some of these major operators, is there an expectation that those prices will come down? Or are we kind of I’m just inviting Tracy to co host. Okay. Hi, Tracy. Are you there? Sorry. Just back to XLE. Do we expect XLE, the traded operators like, say, ExxonMobil, those sorts of guys? ExxonMobile is about to break 100. They’re headed back down after topping out like 115, something like that. So do we expect their share price to follow the crude price directionally?

Albert

I would say no. Really? It’s tough. It’s a tough call, to be honest with you, because we just don’t know which way the markets are going to go. Crude prices is acting like bitcoin at the moment, just being up and down 10% per week. I can’t even give you an honest answer on that.

Sam

I mean, it’s certainly not going to be the same data that you would expect in a decade ago, but you’re likely to have the sentiment at least have some effect on XLE or XOP, whatever it might be. But the issue now is that you’re not going to have the same sort of capital expenditure catch up and overshoot that you did in previous cycles simply because investors have already said, we will punish you for that. And producers don’t want to be punished.

Sam

They’re making a lot of money at 50, 60, $70 barrel oil. I don’t think you’re going to see the level of beta to the underlying that you would normally expect.

Tony

Okay, great. So basically they’re using your old equipment at the current energy prices and they’re maxing it out. But when the capex cycle does come on, will it come on with huge force or will that trickle out? Like when will invest? Will investors decide at some point that they won’t punish these operators for capex?

Sam

No, they won’t. No. Okay. Why spend for something that has a five to seven year time rise? We’ve been told that the oil companies aren’t supposed to exist in a decade. So as a shareholder you want that return of capital. You don’t want that capital put back to the ground. And if you begin to see any sort of significant uptick in capital expenditures, you’re going to have it absolutely crushed from a stock perspective. Right. If Exxon announced that they were going to begin a significant capital expenditure program, that stock would get absolutely hammered and you can just go through any of the companies. It’s all about what are you doing for my dividend? How much stock are you buying back and maintaining output, not expanding because you talked about it.

Mike

We’ll be short or fast. I think it’ll be going to take a long time for that to happen unless some major catalyst happens that actually sparks that in.

Tony

When you think about how long it.

Mike

Is to legislate get permits, it’s a decade.

Sam

Yeah, absolutely.

Mike

So it’s got to be some major catalysts.

Tony

Tracy, are you there? I see you as a co host but I’m not sure if you can speak. Okay. Once you’re in Tracy, just speak up and I’d love to get you involved in this discussion. Sam, how much of an impact is having is say lower gasoline prices having on the affordability in broader inflationary environment? So basically are gas prices helping the inflation discussion much or is it just a relatively small thing since a lot of people are working from homes?

Sam

There’s kind of two ways to think about that. There’s the inflation dynamics, the actual inflation dynamics that lower gasoline does have that headline CPI narrative.

Tony

It’s a tax cut. I’m kidding.

Sam

The problem is that over time gasoline has become a much smaller portion of the wallet. The average person does not spend anywhere near as much on gasoline as they used to and that’s just a fact. So is it really helping people on the margin? Yes. Gasoline and groceries are the two things that you can kind of see and one you see in a big bull sign, the other you see every week when you go buy groceries. So gasoline, grocery prices coming down, it’s good for the consumer mentality. Is it good for the action and spending levels?

Tony

Okay, great. Okay guys, just so you know, this is a live spaces. We are recording this and we’ll upload on the YouTube channel probably tomorrow. Tracy has joined us. Tracy, if you’re there and you want to chime in please join. Okay, let’s move on to the next topic for inflation and recession worries. So inflation is proceeding pretty much unabated salmon, and we saw this in your newsletter this week and I’d love to talk more about that. We also had some Goldman guy, I can’t remember who it was yesterday, saying there’s probably going to be a recession in 2023. And all these people are coming out saying maybe back half of 2023 there’s a recession, which it’s a convenient time to say that right? Right now to say something’s going to happen in the back half of 23. So you look at the terminal rate in your newsletter.

So how would, say accelerated inflation, if that’s actually coming or the steeping of recession worries affect the terminal rate from the Fed?

Sam

I think you have to divide that into the first part. That is, what would inflation call it a deceleration in inflation pressures mean for the Fed? Unless it’s significant? Not much. Does a recession matter for the Fed? Not if it doesn’t come with disinflation. Does the Fed care if we have real GDP decline? No. I mean we have real GDP decline, q One, q Two. They got their mandate, they did not care. Right. You currently have north of 7% CPI and you have an unemployment rate of 3.8, maybe percent. It’s really hard for me to see which one of those metrics is comforting to the Fed at this point. So does it affect the Fed’s trajectory? Maybe it’ll take a 25 out of the terminal rate, but that’s about it. You’re simply not going to have this type of immediate Fed pivot with inflation at north of 6% and this type of unemployment rate, it’s just not going to happen.

Tony

Okay, great. Now for you guys on spaces, if you have a question or want to put up your hand, put a question in the channel or put up your hand. We’ll take some questions later on in the podcast.

Albert

That inflation is just so sticky right now. We spoke about it earlier for podcast about wage inflation just sitting there, you know, just rising every single month. Politically, it’s a great thing for people to wait 40 years to get wage inflation, but I just, I can’t see how all these consumer prices are going to come down and talk about this inflation or wage inflation is just going to stay elevated for the next 1015 years.

Tony

Yeah, that’s a good point. So I get that there’s this expectation out there where people expect prices to come down to say, 2019 levels at some point. And, you know, we were talking about this, Sam, that do you expect prices to go back down to 2019 levels? We’ve seen a dramatic rise in a lot of different areas. So do you expect that to fall back down to what it was two, three years ago?

Sam

No, I don’t even think that in the best of all possible worlds, that’s not one of the worlds.

Albert

The only people talking about that are the political people that are trying to sit there and trying to gain votes because people are struggling at the moment. But the economic guys exactly. It’s only what you want to hear, but the economic guys are looking at the numbers and, like, we have never seen I mean, why would why would companies bring the prices back down that much when they know they can get away with it?

Sam

I mean, Cracker Barrel expects wages in the coming year to be up five, 6%, right?

Tony

Those of you who aren’t in the US.

Sam

Year, right?

Tony

For those of you who aren’t in the US. Cracker Barrel is a very kind of middle America restaurant comfort food, right? It’s biscuits and gravy. It’s fried chicken, that sort of thing. And so this is not the high end yet. It’s not McDonald’s. It’s very much the middle market in the US. And so Sam’s done a very good job in his newsletter over the last couple of years covering price hikes at Pepsi, at Home Depot, at Cracker Barrel, at other places. So many of these companies have raised prices by, like, 8% to 10%, generally, or more. Who’s raised more?

Sam

So Campbell Soup this morning came out with earnings, and they divide them into two categories. They divide it into soup and kind of prepared meals type deals and then snacks.

So think Snyder’s Pretzels is one of the brands. The prepared meals, which include soup, they increased pricing, 15% from last year, and they increased on snacks, 18. And that was price that they pushed. Volumes were slightly negative, but negative 1% and 2%. Okay, you’re talking almost no budge on volume and a huge move in pricing, and that is for the most boring of all commodities. This is soup we’re talking about.

Tony

And I want you guys to understand what Sam is saying. Campbell Soup has raised their prices between 15 and 20%, and their volume declined 1%. So do we ever expect Campbell Soup to reduce their prices by 18%?

Sam

No. That’s the beautiful part if you were corporate America right now, is you get a free pass to really find the elasticity in the market for your product by raising prices until you begin to see pushback from consumers, and you just haven’t seen a significant pushback from consumers. And to the narrative of inflation peaking. Inflation is peaking. If you look at the last four quarters of price increases from Campbell Soup, it was something like 6%, 11%, 11%, 16. Right? So maybe the second derivative is negative, but the first derivative isn’t.

Tony

And it’s positive in not a small way.

Sam

Correct.

Tony

We’re not talking about 2% price rises. We’re talking about 18% price rises, which.

Mike

Is we’re seeing that for consumers, the biggest increase. But, I mean, I guess in future years, that probably somewhat levels off. And then on top of raising prices, I’m sure all of you have noticed the shrinkflation, the items have less in it and we’re paying more for it on top of everything else.

Sam

Well, that is part of the pricing element. Right. So when they take packaging down a couple of ounces that shows up in the pricing mechanism.

Albert

It’s incredible that Campbell Soup and all these other companies raised their prices by 16% to 19% because that is actually the true inflationary number. When you go back to what they used to do it in the 1990s, it’s 18 19%, not the 7% that the Fed tells you. CPI.

And on top of that, these inflationary numbers give you a tailwind for earnings. So all these companies that surprise earning beats, if you look at them, what inflation has done into their products, it’s not a surprise that they beat.

Sam

Yeah, right. And it’s somewhat stunning because if you think about it from a 23 24 perspective, if you have your input costs begin to move lower, or at least decelerate, and you’re holding your prices at these current levels, or even increasing slightly from here, or increasing from here, all of a sudden you begin to think about what that does to a bottom line. That is an extremely attractive thing for a business. As we begin to move into the latter part of the margin expansion that everybody kind of thought was over after COVID, that really might return to some of these boring, staid old stocks.

Tony

Right. So guys, just, just to be clear, what we’re saying here is prices are not going to go down or they’re highly unlikely to go down to what they were two or three years ago. We’ve hit an inflation level, it’s a stairstep. And companies are comfortable seeing reduced volumes, but they’ve compensated that with higher price and consumers are generally accepting higher price. Right. So as an aside, I’ll be shameless here and say complete intelligence does cost and revenue forecasting. If you guys need any help with that, let us know. Okay? So, terminal rate, you’re still looking at five to five to five somewhere in there.

Sam

Well, I think it’s probably closer to five and a half to somewhere between, I would say five and a half to six because you have the stickiness in wages, right? And the stickiness in remember this is important, that Powell, week ago at the Brookings Talk pointed out one thing, and that was Core Services Ex shelter. In other words, they, they are already throwing shelter out. Even when shelter decelerates, they’re not going to pay attention to it. And he also made it very clear that Core Services X Shelter, the main input cost for many of these businesses is wages and personnel. So while you have these wage pressures, building the Fed is not your friend in any meaningful way. So I’m much more on the give it five and a half to six. There’s this idea maybe we get 50 50 25 then done. Or 50 50 done. It’s more like 50 50. 25 and 25 and 25. It’s just slower.

Tony

You said this a month or so ago. It’s a matter of the number of 25 that we get.

Sam

Yes, it’s 25 delays.

Tony

Okay. So it’s not over, guys. We’re going to continue to see the Fed take action, and they haven’t even really started QT yet. And we’ve talked about that for some time. And when they start QT is really when markets feel is that fair to say? Yeah, depends on the market, of course.

Sam

Yeah, they’ve started QT It’s just a small 200 billion or something that’s still QT. They’re not going to sell them.

Mike

I think one of the things he said is the Fed is not your friend. And just think about that statement for a minute. For two decades, all investors we’ve all come to known as the Fed is our friend. Anytime the market was down, they’re out there doing press conferences. But I think it’s critical for people to understand we’re not going to see a return of that for a significant amount of time.

Tony

Right. You’re not public servants. Right. Exactly. They don’t like you.

Albert

It’s important that as Sam mentioned, that 50 50 and then the repetitive 25s correlates with their rhetoric of soft landing that they keep talking about whether they can actually achieve a soft landing. Well, that’s another debate that we talk about. But that’s exactly what their intentions are. Those are 25 US to the end of their they get to where they want to be.

Tony

Right. Okay, very good. Let’s move on to Japan. Bank of Japan Chairman Corona was on the wires this week talking about Japan hitting the 2% inflation rate, which they’ve been trying to hit for 30 years or something. And then they made a policy with Avionics in 2012, and they still have been able to hit it. And now that we have crazy inflation globally, they’re going to claim the win. Right. And they’re going to say, we hit it and abe nomics. Although Avi is not empowering where it was ultimately successful. So, Albert and Sam, I’m just curious, what does that mean if Japan hits 2% inflation and they tail off their quantitative easing, their kind of QE infinity and they stop buying government bonds, all this stuff. First of all, do you think that’s going to happen? Okay. And second, if that does happen, what did Japanese markets look like? And then what does the yen look like? I realize they just threw a bunch of stuff out there, so just take it away. So you might like jump in here. Sure.

Albert

The fiscal monetary setup is quite favorable, right. If they do whatever they’re going to say they’re going to do quite favorable. There are only headwinds that I can see is the US. Stock market equities. If the US equities fall, without a doubt it will affect the Asian market, specifically Japan. It’s a tall order for them to sit there and get their 2% inflation target. So I don’t even know if that’s even a valid discussion, but I guess we’ll sit there.

As much as a set up as favorable for Japan, they’re combating China. And I still think that China, because they don’t have as much connection to the US. Equity market, is a little bit more favorable. I would go China over Japan right.

Tony

Now, yes, but I’m tired of talking about it.

Albert

I know not to talk about China when Japan is so interconnected with China, so everything is interconnected in that region. But I do think that the fiscal monetary set up for Japan is favorable.

Tony

Okay, sam, what do you think?

Sam

Like Albert said, theoretically, it’s really interesting. It’s intriguing. The one thing that I think is important to remember about Japan is that every time they seem to have the monetary policy setting correct and they were heading to actually hit their 2% target, they always seem to raise taxes or do something to make sure that they missed it. Was MMT on steroids? Very good example of MMT actually working. Right. You can do as much monetary policy as you want as long as every time you’re close to an inflation target, you just race to that or taxes. So I think that’s something that I’m always somewhat skeptical of Japan doing. If they begin to lift yield curve control on Japanese government bond yields, I think it’ll do two things. One, it will make for an interesting market in Japanese bonds. The BOJ owns such a large amount of that market that is almost difficult to fathom that it actually has a functioning market. It doesn’t really have a functioning yield market. So that’s kind of the first thing is we’ll finally get a feel for how that market actually functions. The second one is that you’ve had a 2% inflation win with the yen sitting between 130 and 150, a very weak yen.

That’s a tailwind to inflationary pressures. If they do lift YCC, it doesn’t matter what else they do. If they raise interest rates, whatever it might be, the yen going back to 120 is going to undo a lot of that inflation pressure in and of itself. You’re going to really bring that in. It’s also probably a positive. Having a stronger yen in this environment when you’re at an energy shortage globally is a positive for the Japanese economy because they import so much energy. Having that stronger yen makes it cheaper in domestic terms from that perspective. So I think there’s a number of things that could line up pretty well, and there’s always the opportunity for the Japanese government to mess it up somehow. Of course, I do think that it’s a very interesting market, particularly if you can do it on a call it an outright basis investing and get some of that currency dynamics mixed in with your investment, that could be a very interesting opportunity going.

Albert

You know, what’s interesting is what you’re saying about MMT on steroids. It’s like, you know, you’re making all these descriptions of what’s going on in Japan, and I just look at the fed, and I’m just like, well, oh, my God. We’re starting to be on the verge of Japanification at the moment right now, because the 30 year bond from who I talked to the 30 year is.

Sam

Completely controlled by the federal government.

Albert

And at the moment, it’s completely controlled. And if they can sit there and pump those bonds and pump the markets, you got Japan right here in the United States with MMT and Leil Bernard and yelling, doing whatever they want to do.

Sam

You just have to raise taxes.

Albert

Yeah. So so masters at that. Yeah.

Tony

So I used to go to Japan a lot, and in the late, say, 2010, 2011, when the yen was at, like, 75, when I would go to Tokyo and I would go down to breakfast in the hotel, I was the only one there. And I remember when Abe was elected and even pre election, the yen started to weaken him taking office. The yen started to weaken. Right. And I remember the first time I went down to the hotel lobby and there was a line to get to breakfast rather than just it being wide open for me. So a devalued yen means a huge amount of power for the Japanese economy. So when you say JPY going back to 120, I remember in 2010 eleven. When people would say, gosh, if we just had a yen at 95, we’d be happy. Right. And now it’s at 145, or whatever it is.

Sam

I haven’t 130 yet.

Tony

136. So, you know, it’s you know, it’s a completely different environment and puts the Japanese economy in completely different context. But you have nationalization of bond markets, you have nationalization of ETF markets. Is it really an open, competitive economy? It’s certainly a highly centralized economy. Right. And that’s really dangerous. But they love to use demographics as the justification to intervene in markets, right?

Albert

Yes.

Tony

Okay, guys, if anybody has a question, raise your hand. Or I’m not exactly how this works. Again, this is our first time to do a spaces. So put something in the messages or raise your hand or do whatever, and we could potentially have you come on and ask your question. I’ll be very honest. If you have an anonymous Twitter handle and we don’t know you, I’m not going to let you speak. So don’t waste your time. But if you’re someone we know, then we’re glad to have you on. So I guess while we wait for people to come in with questions, we’re pre Christmas holidays here in the US. We’ve got a Fed meeting coming up, the expectations for a 50 basis point hike. What do you guys expect? We’re seeing equity markets really kind of gradually move lower. What do you guys expect for the next week? Or so in the US before the Christmas holiday.

Albert

I think the CPI is actually going to be a little bit less than consensus and probably get a rally going to the end of the year, to be honest with you. I think everybody knows it’s going to be 50 basis points. The question is what’s the guidance after that? What do they say? If it’s a good CPI number, well, then you can have this dough stock for another month.

Mike

Sentiment has been so low and kind of got your seasonality right now. I think that probably prevails here.

Sam

If you think about it, a few.

Mike

Months ago everybody was kind of in this panic, Seymour. People kind of there’s this nice little calm right now everybody’s just kind of floating around waiting to see what’s next. And what’s your point? I think everyone expects to raise another.

Albert

50 basis point, which is amazing, because 50 basis points is not dovish. I guess everyone’s expecting 75 or 100 about a month ago, you know, their.

Mike

Condition as to.

Sam

No, I would say there’s there’s a couple of interesting things about the Fed meeting it into the back half of the year. One is what does the dollar actually do here? Because if you begin to actually have a significant move in CNY stronger right lower on this chart. But if you get a significant move back towards the 650 area on CNY, that is going to have a spillover effect. To a stronger Euro continued strength in the British pound you could begin to have a number of dynamics that are somewhat negative dollar and therefore pretty bullish on the risk asset front that I think could catch some people off guard simply because of the spillover effects. But the Fed, the one thing to remember about this meeting is it’s not just a 50 basis point height. It’s also that stupid dot plot that they do that actually has some pretty serious potential consequences because if 23 comes out with higher than expected dots and 24 dots move higher, the terminal and the long term rate begins to creep a little bit higher. If you begin to have that hawkishness, I kind of want to say this, so going to, if you begin to have the hawkishness become less transitory in the dot plot, that could become somewhat problematic for markets that could take some of the sales out of what we’ve seen to be a moderating dollar effect.

So I think, I think it’s worth being a little careful until we see that dot plot and begin to hear how Powell is approaching 2023 because I think they’re somewhat aggravated about the way that the Brookings Institution, the Brookings speech was received by markets they did not want a significant asset rally going out of that right. That was counterproductive to what they want. So I think they’re going to be very careful about the rhetoric into the.

Tony

Back half of the year because they would just. Not be so jerky in their communication. They’re super bearish. They’re bullish. They’re super bearish. They’re bullish have a consistent message.

Albert

Yeah, but it depends on what’s going on behind the scenes, what data they see. All this data, they see all the CPI and the jobs numbers a week or two heading for anybody else. Don’t kill yourselves.

So I guess it comes down to what is going on behind the scenes and what they don’t want to break. I mean, Blackstone came from what I heard, blackstone was $80 billion in the hole and having problems, and they went to the Fed, and that’s what triggered Powell to be slightly dovish.

Tony

And I thought they were the fed.

Albert

Well, whenever you guys Powell’s portfolio sitting there in your grasp, you are the.

Tony

Fan of that one.

Albert

But I guess it goes down to what is happening behind the scenes and what could potentially break is why they’re coming on this roller coaster ride of rhetoric.

Tony

Yeah. Okay, I’m going to see if Valena wants to come in she’s attending. And see if she wants to come in to see what? Invite her to speak and see if she wants to Valena, are you there? If you want to come in and let us know what you’re thinking is going into the end of the year and 2023, you have an invite to speak. You’re welcome to.

Albert

Molina is sitting there in Austria, vienna, Austria. And I know the European markets are now looking quite interesting to me. A little luxury market in Europe is absolutely exploding, and it’s just unreal that. It’s just so resilient. I mean, there’s two brands that I personally liked, laura Piano and Brunello Cucinalli, which I have a tremendous amount of polls. Brunello Cucinalli didn’t care anything about the Russian sanctions or anything. Just kept on selling, and they just blew out earnings yesterday or as of today, they were up like 7% this month. Really, the luxury retail market, luxury jewelry market is just it doesn’t stop great. And it’s counter to what everybody is saying. Recession this, recession that. You go to gucci stores, lines out the door, Louis. The time you need an appointment, it’s just resilient. It’s just actually quite amazing.

Sam

It is really similar to if you look at our markets, right, particularly the masters plotted against the price of oil. If you do a six month delay, guess what? It’s almost it’s a really interesting kind of windfall type chart. You can kind of see the oil money flowing in there. And you even had China relatively shut down, and that was a huge driver, a tremendous driver of European luxury, particularly for LVMH. Even with China shut down and not really having the tourism, you had a lot of tourists from Middle East, et cetera, really put in some of the South American countries that are doing fairly well, particularly at the higher end. A lot of that is driving this kind of underneath the surface. You had tech, then you had energy. And the question is, now you have the China reopening. Is that the next leg for a lot of these lectures?

Tony

Okay. So let’s talk China.

Albert

I wasn’t going to do that.

Sam

Tracy.

Tony

You’Re as a speaker as well. So if you want to come in, you can come in any time. Okay, so let’s talk about China, even though I didn’t want to COVID that. So let’s talk China. What’s happening, Albert, with the reopening? Like, what do you see the next two months happening with the China?

Albert

Just as we spoke about a week ago on China, those riots and the reason the Chinese even let you see these riots happen on the social media was a signal that they were going to reopen, and in fact, they did. Days later, we’re reopening in stages. And that’s just it. And get your house in order, everybody, because inflation is going to happen. I think I think copper was up, like, two and a half percent this morning. And this is this is it just barely reopened right now, manufacturing, because the odors were down I think Western odors were down 40%.

Tony

But kind of everyone told me on Twitter that democracy came to China.

Albert

Yeah.

Tony

Okay.

Albert

Those are people that have never been to China or stayed at five star hotels or actually step foot outside of Beijing.

Tony

So let’s go there a little deeper. And Xi Jinping is in the Middle East either today or over the weekend at an Arab China summit. Right. And so, first of all, him leaving China right after there were protests, what does that say to you, Albert?

Albert

Safeguard, he’s done any kind of opposition that was pushing against Xi’s Party congress moves eroded, and then these street protests are just street protests. I get it, people are upset and their livelihoods and check down the list of whatever you want to say, but realistically, they never work unless they get violent. And they never got violent.

Tony

Right. So you kind of have to let the steam come out of that valve, I think is probably what you’re saying. Right? The CGP is saying that now with CGP going to the Middle East, sam, they are the premier buyer. China is the premier buyer from OPEC clubs now. Right. It’s not the US. And this isn’t new for people who have been paying attention. The Saudis and other people in the Middle East have been spending a lot more time in Beijing for probably six, seven years. And so and and it’s been longer, but it’s been really, really visible for the last six or seven years. So what does what does that tell you about, let’s say, OPEC’s desire to, please say, a US president going to the Middle East to try to bully them, to pump more? Is that effective anymore?

Sam

No, not at all.

Tony

Hi, Tracy.

Speaker 5

Hi. Sorry, I was having technical difficulties, and for some reason I couldn’t all gone earlier.

Tony

Welcome. No apology necessary. We’re just talking about China and with Xi Jinping in the Middle East for a summit with the Saudis and the GCC members and what that means for the ability of say, a US president to kind of bully OPEC into reducing oil prices going forward. Is there really any strength there? Do you see.

Speaker 5

That’S? Absolutely done. What I would expect she landed in China today. I would expect him to get the full lavish welcome. Right. And we want to be looking at who he brought with him as far as national heads of corporations. And I would expect this to be completely opposite of what we saw the Biden meeting with and more akin to what we saw the Trump meeting with, where they I would expect that.

Tony

So they’ll touch the crystal ball.

Speaker 5

Maybe they might bring out the ball. Yes. And I expect billions and billions in new deals as far as economic, military, energy in particular, et cetera going on at this point. Again, they’re having a conference where they’re going to have multiple leaders in the Gulf nations in Saudi Arabia. So I mean they’re really going to try to rue China on this trip big time.

Tony

Right. So when you talk about military deals, what do you think about that? Albert?

Albert

I’m not really sure Saudi Arabia will.

Tony

Do major military deals with China.

Albert

I mean maybe a few just for show up for optics theatrics but the US military hardware is the best in the world and realistically Saudi Arabia is under the US defense umbrella. Whether the left or the right likes it or not, that’s just the reality of it. And as long as Iran is not poking or poking trouble from the east and Yemen not from the south, southern regions have an easy ride. So their military deals aren’t really they’re not at the forefront at the moment. But anytime that Russia wants to string that relationship, they can certainly call up Tehran and say lob a few missiles over and things go right to elegant.

Sam

To Albert’s point, I don’t think Saudi is going to work. KSA is going to become the next India where they split their arms deals among the three major powers of arms anytime soon. I mean that’s just not going to happen.

Albert

No, there will be a little bit, yeah. India is a completely different ballgame. India has got counterbalance, they need to counterbalance Russia with China and Pakistan and it’s the old mess over there and they need to do what they’re doing.

Sam

Well Nksa is also trying to hold together their market share in a world of Russia really having to begin sending almost all their stuff to call it China India.

Tony

Right.

Sam

So if you had were the two largest pieces of growing market share for Saudi Arabia over the past decade, that was India and China. And now you have the other major energy player in the region coming after your market share. There’s got to be a little handshaking here to keep everybody happy and selling at $55 a barrel.

Tony

You don’t hate that, right?

Sam

If you’re trying to. I mean, it’s the perfect time to reopen. You’re getting cheap energy. You have supply chains that have fixed in the rest of the world. So I think this is very much a visit to make sure that they can continue reopening, get those long term energy deals in place, and then move forward.

Tony

Right. Okay, so we do have a question for Tracy, and you guys jump in. So, Tracy, there’s a listener named Rasul, and he’s asking, when China opens up, is it possibility that it could use its own SPR, like in November 21, to reduce its oil cost? Is that something they would consider doing?

Speaker 5

I think not at this juncture, right now, because, first of all, they’ve already drawn it down. Right. And they’re still worried about long term energy security, as is everybody right now. In addition, they’re also getting really cheap Russian oil, so I don’t think that would be something that they would do right now.

Tony

Okay.

Albert

No, they wouldn’t do that.

Tony

Right.

Albert

There’s no absolutely no need to do that. The US. Only did that because of Midterm economics, and that’s just that China had no intention of doing that.

Tony

Great. Okay, good. All right. Well, guys, I think we’ve covered it. We’ve been here for about 40 minutes, and the hotel we’re in has threatened to call the police if we don’t leave. So I want to thank you all for joining us for this week ahead, and we’ll get this posted on our YouTube channel within a day or so, okay? So thanks for joining us, and look forward to seeing you on the next one. Thank you.

Categories
Week Ahead

Fed “moderation”, windfall OAG taxes in UK, and building an exchange: The Week Ahead – 5 Dec 2022

Explore your CI Futures options: http://completeintel.com/inflationbuster

On Wednesday, Jay Powell talked and said “The time for moderating the pace of rate increases may come as soon as the December meeting.” The JOLTs data that came from Wednesday showed a slowing in job openings and the employment data from Friday was still strong but moderated a bit. With China announcing some changes to lockdowns, how worried should we be about commodity prices, given the “moderating” Fed? Albert Marko leads the discussion on this.

We also saw the UK announce windfall oil & gas taxes last week. We’ve seen a slew of announcements to halt investment. This is something that Tracy called out well before the windfall tax was announced. What will the impact be and how did the UK government think this would go over? Tracy explains this in more detail.

Given the LME nickel issues, FTX, etc., credibility is a concern at times. Why do these systems fail? What should people who trade know about exchanges that nobody tells them? Josh shares his expertise on what it’s like to build an exchange.

Key themes:
1. Fed “moderating the pace…”
2. Windfall oil and gas taxes in the UK
3. What’s it like to build an exchange?

This is the 44th episode of The Week Ahead, where experts talk about the week that just happened and what will most likely happen in the coming week.

Follow The Week Ahead panel on Twitter:
Tony: https://twitter.com/TonyNashNerd
Albert: https://twitter.com/amlivemon
Josh: https://twitter.com/JoshCrumb
Tracy: https://twitter.com/chigrl

Transcript

Tony

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Week ahead. My name is Tony Nash. Today we are joined by Josh Crumb. Josh is the CEO of Abaxx Technologies, a former Goldman Sachs, and just a really smart guy who I’ve watched on Twitter for probably eight years. We’re also joined by Tracy Shuchart, of course, and Albert Marko. So thank you guys so much for joining. I really appreciate your time this week.

We’ve got a few key themes to go through. The first is the Fed talking about, “moderating the pace.” We’ll get into that a little bit. Albert will lead on that. Then we’ll get into windfall taxes, windfall oil and gas taxes in the UK. And finally, we’ll look at exchanges. Josh’s started an exchange. I’m interested in that, but I’m also interested in that within the context of, say, the LME and other things that have happened.

So, again, really looking forward to this discussion, guys.

Albert, this week on Wednesday, Chair Powell spoke and he talked about moderating, the pace of rate rises. He said the time for moderating the pace of rate increases may come as soon as the December meeting. Of course, it’s a conditional statement, right?

But with China announcing some of the changes and lockdowns with things like the jobs number out today, I’m really curious about your thoughts on that moderation. So if we look at the Jolts numbers, the job openings numbers from Wednesday we showed that really come off the highs, which is good. It’s moving in the direction the Fed wants.

If we look at the employment data out today, again, it shows a little bit of moderation, but it’s still relatively strong.

So what does all of this mean in the context of what Chair Powell was talking about Wednesday?

Albert

Well, I mean, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury have been really precise in the wording of using soft landing over and over and over again. And let’s make no, let’s not have some kind of like, a fantasy where they don’t see the data a week ahead of time. And all the words and all the phrases and whatever they leak out to the media, like the Wall Street Journal are tailored to try to get a soft landing.

Powell knew what these job numbers were. So for him to come out uber hawkish, which he has to do because the economy is still red hot at the moment, if he came out uber hawkish Wednesday and knowing what these job numbers are and knowing what the CPI is possibly going to be next week, we’d be sitting there at 3800 or 3700. And they don’t want a catastrophic crash, specifically before Christmas. And also the mutual funds and ETFs and rebalancing of this past week.

So from my perspective, they’re going to keep the soft landing ideology. The only thing that could throw in a wrench to this whole thing is retail sales. And if I think the retail sales start becoming hotter than they really want to see then obviously 75 basis points and maybe even 100 is on the docket for the next two months.

Tony

For the next two months? So 50 December, 50 Jan?

Albert

That’s the game plan at the moment, 50-50. If CPI or retail sales start getting a little bit out of hand, they might have to do 75 and 50 or 75 and 25. But again, this is all like all these leaks to the media about softening or slowing down the pace. It’s just another way for them to “do the pivot talk” and try to rally the markets again. So that’s all it is.

Tony

Okay, Josh, what are you seeing? What’s your point of view on this?

Josh

Yeah, so I’m probably not in the market day to day the same as the rest of you from a trading perspective. We’re obviously looking very closely at commodity markets and the interplay between particularly what’s going on in Europe and how that affects energy markets, which I know Tracy and yourself have spoken a lot about.

Yeah, look, I think the last OPEC meeting, I think the Saudis in particular caught a lot of flack for the supply cuts. But now, looking in hindsight, I think they were exactly right. And so I think there really is a softness, particularly that part of the crude markets and of course, in a very different situation downstream in refining. I think that it would be consistent with a softening economy. But I agree with Albert that the Fed, I think, can’t really afford to change their stance, even though even today’s employment report was a very, very sort of lagging indicator, late-cycle indicator.

So I feel, personally, particularly just coming back from Europe, that we’re really already in recession and I think that’s going to be more obvious next year. But I don’t think they can really change their tune for the reasons that Albert laid out.

Tony

Tracy, we had a revision to Q3 GDP this week, and I was looking at those numbers, and exports were a big contributor to that. And crude was a huge portion of those exports in a revision of Q3 to GDP, it was revised up slightly, I think, to 2.9% or something. Now, a large portion of those exports are SPR, and that SPR release is contributing to, say, lower oil prices and lower gasoline prices here in the US, right?

So SPR release theoretically stops this month in December, right? So it tells me that we’re not going to be able to have crude exports that are that large of a contributor to GDP expansion. First. It also tells me that we’ll likely see crude and gasoline prices rise on the back of that if OPEC holds their output or even slightly tightens it. Is that fair to say?

Tracy

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that everybody’s pretty much looking at they’re going to hold a stance. I mean, they’ve already said this over and over again over the last month. After that Wall Street Journal article came out and said they were thinking about increasing production for the bank. You had all of them come back and say, “no, we’ve had, this is what we have in play to the end of 2023. We can change this, obviously, with an emergency meeting, et cetera, et cetera.” But I think at this meeting, I think they’re probably going to be on a wait and see, or, again, like you said, slight and tightening. Maybe $500.

Tony

I stole that idea from you, by the way.

Tracy

Maybe $500,000. It really depends on what they’re looking forward to, is what they have to contend with right now is the oil embargo in Russia on December 5, and then the product embargo comes in on February 2023. For the EU, also, everything is a lot. It’s predicated on China coming back because that’s another 700 to 800,000 barrels per day in demand that could possibly come back. But I think we all agree, as we’ve talked about many times before, that’s probably not until after Chinese New Year, which would be, you know, March, April.

But those are all the things, along with the slowdown, with all the yield curve inversions, not only here, but also in Europe, everybody’s expecting this huge recession coming on. And so that also has a lot to do with sort of sentiment in the crude market. And we’ve seen this in open interest because what we’ve seen in looking at COT (Commitment of Traders), CFTC data, is that we’ve had a lot of longs liquidating, but we haven’t really seen shorts initiating. It’s really just trying to get out of this market. And so that’s what the current futures market is kind of struggling with right now.

Tony

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Okay, so you mentioned the China issue, and earlier this week we did a special kind of show on what will likely happen in China. Albert was a part of that. We had two journalists as a part of that, long-standing China journalist as a part of that. So we’ll put a link to that in this show. But if China opens at an accelerated pace, Albert, we all expect that to impact inflation, right? And we all expect that to impact crude prices.

Tracy

Not any prices across the board, actually, you’re going to be in especially industrial metal.

Tony

Exactly. So how much of Powell’s kind of “moderation” is predicated upon China staying closed through, say, Feb-March?

Albert

Oh, it’s all of it right now. All of its predicated on it. I mean, right now they’re under the impression that China won’t open until April. But I push back on that, and I think at this point, they might even announce an opening in February. Once they announce it, the market looks ahead for three to six months. So things will start taking off at that point.

I do have a question for Tracy, though, for the Russian price cap, right? I know you know the answer, Tracy, but a lot of followers of mine have always asked me about this in DMs is like, why does it make the price of oil go up? Because from my understanding, is because it limits the supply globally. And then as demand comes back, the supply sector actually shrinks. And I wonder what your opinion was on that.

Tracy

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think what you’re going to see with the price cap is that people are going to in Russia already said we’re not going to sell to people that adhere to the oil price cap. Now, again, if it ends up being $60, that’s not really under what they’re selling it for currently at the current discount to Brent. So that’s not that big of a deal. If it’s lower than that, then obviously, yes, that will make a big deal. But they also said that if we have an oil price cap, then we’re going to stop producing, right? Not entirely, but they’ll curb back production, which will in turn make oil prices higher globally, even if that price cap in place. And so that’s kind of their hit back.

But that said, again, I don’t think as much oil is going to be taken off the market with a price cap, particularly at $60. And Russia has already figured out a way around secondary sanctions, obviously, in June as far as shipping, insurance, and certification is concerned. And you have to think, realistically speaking, you’re going to have a lot of shippers, especially Greek shippers, that this is their major business that is going to say, yes, we’re shipping this oil at the “price cap.”

Right. So you just have to keep in mind the games that are played in the industry. But, yeah, some oil will definitely be taken off the market. And Russia also could decide to pull back on production in order to hurt the west to make oil prices rise in the west.

Tony

Europeans love to violate their own sanctions anyway, right? They’ll just buy through India or something, right? And they’ll know full well that it’s coming forward.

Tracy

They’re buying Russian LNG. It’s not piped in right now. Right, but they’re still buying LNG. They’re having it shifting, and they’re paying massively.

Tony

Let’s turn off the pipeline and raise prices on ourselves. Okay.

Albert

They learned from Bible in the keystone, right?

Josh

Maybe I’ll add one more perspective here. You have to remember that oil is Russia’s economic lever and gas is their political lever. And so I actually believe that Russia is actually trying to maximize, we haven’t lost a lot of Russian barrels since the beginning in March, but I think they’re actually trying to maximize revenues right now because not that I want this to happen, but I could see much more extreme gas measures coming from Russia through perhaps some of the gas that’s still coming through the Ukraine as soon as January. You know they want to maximize those political levers, and they’ve already been sort of playing every game they can to contractually even break contracts and minimize gas even since end of last year. So, again, oil is the… They’re always going to want to maximize their oil exports for revenue and maximize their political power with gas.

Albert

Yeah, they do that often, especially in North Africa, where they try to limit the gas that comes in there using Wagner and whatever little pressure they can to stop it. They’ve done that so many times.

Tony

Great. Okay, let’s move on from this and let’s move on to the windfall oil and gas taxes in the UK, Tracy. We saw the UK announced this last week or two weeks ago.

Tracy

November 17, they announced the increase. Yeah.

Tony

Okay, so we’ve seen a slew of announcements, and I’ve got on screen one of your Tweet threads about Shell pulling out their energy investment and Ecuador doing the same and Total doing the same.

So can you talk us through kind of your current thinking on this and what the impact will be? And how on earth did the UK think this would go over well?

Tracy

Well, I mean, that is a very good question. How did they think this would possibly go? I mean, we know that if you’re going to place the windfall tax, they raised it from 25% to 35%, which is very large. And that’s in addition to the taxes that companies are already paying, which in that particular country is some of the highest in the world. Right. And so this is just an added on. So, of course, you have Shell and Ecuador now rethinking what they’re going to do with huge projects going on there. And Total literally just said, we’re cutting investment by 25% entirely in that country.

And so what happens is what’s interesting is that this whole thing occurred after COP27. And what we saw is kind of a change in the language at COP27, where countries were more interested in energy security rather than green energy. Of course, that was part of the discussion, but we did see sort of a language change and people start worrying about countries start worrying about energy security, which makes sense after the Russian invasion of Ukraine and everything that has happened.

So for the UK to kind of do this on the back of that without realizing the implications of what’s going to happen. What’s going to happen is that they’re going to see less investment. Obviously, we already have majors coming out saying we’re just not going to invest here. Right. And that’s going to raise prices in particular for electricity in that country. We’re not just talking about oil and gas, but everything attached to oil and gas, you know, the secondary and tertiary things that are attached to oil prices and gas prices within that country. And so that, you know, that’s going to keep inflation high in their country and, you know, and it’s a very dangerous territory if you’re talking about energy security. Right.

Because UK is an island and they have assets right there. So everything else that they cannot produce there, they have to import. And that’s not cheap either. So you have to think about that. And this all comes at a time where Capex is already dangerously low since 2014 in this particular industry. So it seems like it’s self inflicted harm not only on the citizens that are going to have to pay for this via inflation higher, right. But also their energy security is compromised. Yeah.

Tony

I love the irony of a French company telling the British that they’re taxed are too high.

Albert

Yeah, it’s actually amazing because, like, the Swiss today has stalled all electric vehicles from being registered or imported to secure their grid from blackouts.

Tony

Wow.

Albert

Yeah, that was just maybe like an hour or two ago.

Tracy

And they said that they’re prepared to have like a four tier energy system and basically if you have on your third tier, they’re cutting you off of like you can’t charge a car in third tier.

Albert

Like Tracy was saying, nobody thinks about the second and third order of things, like the electrical grid going out and industrial sector having to buy diesel generators so the power doesn’t fluctuate and ruin their machinery. Nobody thinks about these things, they only think about the marketing material out of Tesla.

Tracy

Right.

Josh

Probably maybe add one more lens to look at this through. And that’s the geopolitical and political lens. I think we’ve had enough three decades of sort of Laissez-faire economics that any politician knows the effects of announcement like that. So I don’t think this was a naive approach, particularly as Tracy mentioned, that this was coming on the back of COP.

I think this was something to sort of give to a sort of a populist base around inflation and we’re going to go after big energy. But at the end of the day, I totally agree with Tracy that everything’s pivoted to energy security and almost wartime footing. And so I think we’re not used to looking at policy announcements or sort of economic policy announcements in that lens the last 30 years. But increasingly we’re going to have to look at all of this through almost a wartime footing way of thinking. So what are they likely doing there? In my view, again, I think they’re kind of giving a, you know, buying some goodwill on the populist front and maybe environmental front while at the same time realizing that they’re going to start having to maneuver all they can to secure hydrocarbon supply. So that’s the way I might read something like that.

Albert

Yeah, I could have said it better myself. Josh I mean, the thing I try to stress to people when you’re looking at foreign affairs and foreign politics is you need to see what’s happening domestically in the country first because that’s what writes the script for what their international needs are.

Tony

And it’s interesting that you both say that populism drove this, it seems in the UK, although it’s impacting the electricity prices, we see populist movements in China, we see it in Pakistan, here in the US. I think a lot of people thought populism died when Trump lost in 2020 and it’s just not true. There is just so much of a populist drive globally. People are tired of the current structures and they want more. So it’s interesting to see and it will be interesting to see the fallout. Tracy do you see other companies moving in that direction of a windfall tax?

Tracy

We did see India, they enacted a windfall tax as well. They’re kind of pulling back on that right now. We have Germany talking about a windfall tax, but at the same time they’re giving subsidies out like candy. But then again, that country is like an enigma right, as far as energy policy is concerned. But I think that’s… What’s interesting about the UK is now they’re also talking about a windfall tax on green energy.

Tony

Oh, good. Interesting.

Tracy

So they are talking about that too, and they’re talking about almost a 90% tax because of all the subsidies they’ve been receiving that will be end up. So we’ll see if that comes to fruition or not. But that would really I mean…

Albert

They going to have to give them loopholes because everyone is going to look at what’s going on in Germany and then spending tens of billions of dollars to bail out the energy company that supplies all their consumers. It’s just silliness. They’re just playing through the populous voice at the moment.

Tracy

The US talked about a windfall tax too, over the last year, but it has just not found footing yet.

Tony

Don’t do it.

Tracy

I don’t think it’ll pass. I didn’t even think it’ll pass with if you had even with like a Democrat-controlled Senate, I still don’t think that’s going to pass because you have too many of those senators in Hydrocarbon that represent Hydrocarbons states.

Tony

Okay, great. Let’s move on to the last segment, which is really looking at exchanges. And Josh, your company has built an exchange, continues to build an exchange. We’ve seen some real issues around exchanges. Well, for a long time, but really most recently with say, the LME and the Nickel issue. And we’ve seen FTX kind of called an exchange and we’ve seen FTX fall apart. I’m really curious first of all, can you help us define what is an exchange and then why do these problems emerge?

Josh

It’s a great question and thanks for that. So I think maybe I’ll step back and just mention kind of how Abaxx have been thinking about because we went out and set off to build a regulated exchange and the first physical commodity focused clearinghouse in Asia about four years ago. And for us, we looked at an upcoming commodity cycle. I had a view that we really bottomed in the energy cycle around 2015, 2016, but we still had to wear off a lot of excess inventories. And probably ten years ago, the market was spending almost $2 trillion a year in energy infrastructure. That number has fallen down to something like one and a half trillion a year. So even though population is increasing and wealth is increasing, we’re actually spending less and less on our infrastructure. So it was only a matter of time until we kind of wore off any excess capacity from the last commodity cycle. So for me, I looked back at you go through these cycles, but the market inevitably is always changing.

Josh

So if you think back to, you think back to sort of 2007, 2008, and that part of the commodity cycle. We were still mostly focused on WTI. Brent wasn’t even a huge price marker. It was really only 2010, 2011, 2012, when you started increasingly see the markets changing. So our view is that this commodity cycle, for all of the reasons and the green energy transition, the focus on net zero, we thought a whole new set of commodity benchmarks was going to be needed because different commodities were going to be featured more prominently this cycle. So that’s why we set out to build the exchange. And I will answer your question. I just wanted to kind of walk through this history.

The other thing that I think happened over the last two decades is with the digitization of the trading space. Again, remember, it wasn’t that long ago that commodity trading was floor trading and people yelling and pushing each other in a pit, right? And so you always have to look at the evolution of markets that kind of evolved with the evolution of communication technology and software and really what’s happened since everything went electronic is we had a massive consolidation of the exchanges and the exchange groups across the world. There used to be like the Nymex itself, which is obviously the core of the Chicago Mercantile Exchanges energy business that had something like five contracts for like 100 years and now there’s thousands of contracts.

Right? So there’s always this evolution of markets. There was this consolidation in markets, but in our view, the exchanges themselves got away from specializing in the industry or the product they serve. And so we think it’s a little bit of a mistake of history that the two biggest energy markets in the world were acquired markets. They see me buying the Nymex and Ice buying the IPE, which was the Brent markets. And so in our view, we actually don’t think the physical market builders really exist in the big exchange groups anymore.

So we saw this sort of classic opportunity. This economy of scale or whatever to actually hyper focus on physical commodities and the physical commodity benchmarks that are going to be needed for the next commodity cycle. 

So getting back to your question. So what is an exchange? Again, this problem of the digitization of everything, we end up creating a lot of conflicts between what is a broker, what is an exchange, what is a clearing house, you know, different entities playing on both sides of the trade. And of course, I have my Goldman Sachs background, so that was always the big debate about Goldman in the 2000s. They’re on every part of the trade.

And really we used to be in this market infrastructure where you really separated all the conflicts in exchange itself for a long, long time as a nonprofit organization, almost like a utility. And you bought seats again to push each other in the pit. That’s where the private entities were, were in the exchange memberships.

So now what we have today is we have broker dealers like Coinbase calling themselves an exchange, even though they’re applying for an FCM license, a Futures Commission license, which again, it shows that they’re a broker, they’re not an exchange. So I think there’s a lot of confusion on what an exchange is. And what you really want to do is separate those conflicts of interest.

An exchange should never have a house position. Exchange is really just the place that matches trades. And a broker dealer is the one that’s someone that nets two clients and then puts that trade onto an exchange. So there’s been a lot of regulation, particularly after DoddFrank and after a lot of the problems in the financial system in 2008, to try to separate these conflicts out. But unfortunately, with crypto and other things, we’ve been starting to consolidate everything again into a conflicted model. So we’re trying to get away from that and focus very much on physical commodities and an unconflicted model.

Tony

Is it possible to separate those things out? I know it’s conceptually possible. But since we’ve gone beyond that separation, I know that’s what you’re trying to do as a company, but how hard is it to convince people that these aren’t the same things? Because obviously there’s conflicts if they’re combined. Right. There’s margin, I guess, in those conflicts, right?

Josh

Exactly. So we wrote a risk net article on this because FTX actually came to the CFTC proposing that they bring their highly centralized conflicted model into the CFTC. And to their credit, the CFTC and the Futures Industry Association, I think they recognized this problematic approach, that they wanted the exchange in the clearinghouse to be separated from the Futures Commission merchants. And at the end of the day, you know, the FCM’s, which is really the prime broker that connects to the clearing house, they do more than just handle administrative work and collect margin. 

At the end of the day, they’re the ones really looking and really knowing their customers’ overall position. So if you look at something like the LME problem, what it really was is you had this big OTC position in one of the brokers that was sort of Texas hedged or had a bad hedge into what was actually so it was a Ferro nickel. It looks like it was a Ferro nickel and sort of integrated stainless steel producer that was hedging against the deliverable contract in an LME nickel that they actually couldn’t deliver into. And there’s actually nothing new about that.

That’s actually how the Nymex really came to be the top energy market. You had the Idaho Potato King, hedging into a main potato that he couldn’t deliver into and cause an epic short squeeze. So this stuff is not, there’s nothing new in these markets. And the main thing is we want to maximize decentralization. We want to maximize the amount of FCMs involved in managing that delivery risk and knowing what their clients’ positions are, and the exchange having enough knowledge to know where the risk sits as well.

So it’s that check and balance. If you leave all of the risk to one entity or to one regulator, it becomes very problematic. That’s why we have the separation of all these pieces of market infrastructure, so that everybody is looking at the risk from their perspective, so that overall we can try to minimize the risk in a more resilient system.

Tony

Okay, Josh, I’m just curious, what should people know about exchanges that nobody tells them? I know that’s a really broad question, but it seems extraordinarily simple. But there’s got to be something that people should know that nobody ever tells them about what an exchange is.

Josh

Yeah, I think that an exchange should never have… We like to say that the exchange should be the scoreboard, not the referee. The exchange should really only be transparently, showing a price, showing that data, executing the price, but it should never have a position and it never should be telling the market what to do. The exchange is the scoreboard, not the referee.

Tony

That’s a great statement. Albert, what questions do you have?

Albert

As soon as he said that I was in absolute agreement. Everyone that knows me knows that I abhor crypto. Right. And what they’ve done. That’s an understatement, I know. But I’ve always said, if you want to do something with blockchain digitalization, you have contracts, whether it be real estate, whether it be commodities, something like that, to create transparency and trust in the system. 

Exactly what Josh is talking about, because I’ve seen and personally heard of manipulation in the oil futures and commodities market that is just outrageous. Absolutely outrageous. And it’s not fair to people like me that trade futures where for some reason I can’t buy a contract because the prices, like the price discrepancies, are just outrageous at the moment. And everyone knows the brokers are intermixed with the exchanges and so on and so forth. But something like this, where it’s digitalized and you’re just a scoreboard, is a great idea.

Josh

Yeah. And I think the other big problem is we look at every price for different assets and think all prices are fair. And if there’s anything the last two years has taught us, that efficient market hypothesis is not right. And so, you know, we look at these prices like they’re all the same. You see a WTI price, you see a nickel price, you see the price of Google, you see the price of a ten year, you see the price of a real estate bond. At the end of the day, it’s the market structure, and you can’t fundamentally change the liquidity or lack of liquidity in a market. Right? And so one of the other problems that we saw, again, this is why we exist, is we think that the commodity markets have gotten hyper financialised and digitized, where people have gotten away from what is the actual underlying price.

So LNG is where we’re focused. We think LNG is the most and this has been our view for five years before, most people didn’t know what LNG was before it was front page news, is that LNG was the most important commodity for probably two decades. And at the end of the day, what is the price of LNG? There is not a clean, transparent price of LNG. LNG is not the Dutch title transfer facility. LNG is not the five people that report on a voluntary basis to the JKM. Right. There really isn’t a price for LNG. And more importantly, right now, there’s not a buyer and seller of last resort market. You can’t go in and buy futures and go to delivery in LNG. That doesn’t exist.

And next year, I think it’s going to be absolutely critical because there’s going to be an all out bidding war for probably the next 30 months between Asia and Europe for that marginal cargo of LNG. We haven’t seen anything yet this year. Next year, and the summer of 2024 is when it gets really bad.

And we need a market that actually, as one of my former colleagues used to say it needs to be a knife fight in a phone booth. Right. You need absolute market discovery. And that physical price has to converge with that futures price. That’s the only fair price. It’s the only fair benchmark. And that’s what we’re doing is doing the hard, hard work to figure out what is a physical long form contract look like to go into delivery of these hard commodities like LNG.

Tracy

And I just want to add on that because everybody’s talking about how European storage is full right now. This year was never going to be a problem. It’s next year there’s going to be a problem. Because you have to realize that they were 50% full. Russia got them 50% full on piped natural gas really cheap. Now that’s gone, right? And so they were paying higher spot prices just to get LNG shipped in. Right. Those cargoes are going to be, next year is where you’re going to see a real problem because a lot of other countries already have long term contracts. And as Qatar said, we have to service the people that we have long term contracts with first. You’re secondary sorry, Europe. Right?

Josh

In Europe, I think, also loses something like 8 million tons per annum capacity up from longterm contracts next year as well that roll off. So there’s actually more spot market bidding. And then on top of that, China is likely to be back in the market. And China last year became the largest LNG importer and they really weren’t even in the market this year. But the one thing that they did do is they’ve been buying all the long term contracts. So even though they’re not buying the spot cargoes this year, they’ve been the biggest player in buying new long term contracts so that they have the optionality. Look, at the end of the day, you know, heating is always going to demand, particularly residential heating in the winter is always going to demand the highest premium because there’s just no elasticity there. You can cut industrial demand. You can probably substitute and power substitution. But if I’m China, I really want the optionality of having that long term agreement. And if prices are high in Europe, I’ll just divert the cargo into Europe or I’ll divert for political reasons diverted to Pakistan or India.

So they’re buying all the optionality, whereas Europe is not buying the long-term offtake. And in fact, they’re buying very short term infrastructure because they’re very focused on, oh, it’s going to be a stranded asset under 2030. So we needed to convert it into hydrogen or something else, right. So there’s a lot they’re really handcuffing themselves, which is going to be again, we need better market infrastructure so the market can sort this stuff out.

Tony

It’s great. Guys, you never disappoint. Thank you so much for this. This has been fantastic. Josh, thanks for coming on. I know you’re a super busy guy. I really appreciate it. And thanks, Tracy and Albert really appreciate this. Have a great weekend. Have a great week ahead. Thank you very much.